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1822 $5 half eagle in upcoming Pogue Auction
Gazes
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This coin is the subject of books and is one of the highlights of all 5 auctions. I was wondering how much it would go for which led me to the question I now pose---how many legitimate bidders do you think will there be for this coin ?
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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I still don't get why it is so earth-shatteringly important for the Smithsonian to own TWO of the 3 known of this rarity.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I still don't get why it is so earth-shatteringly important for the Smithsonian to own TWO of the 3 known of this rarity.
Did anybody say that it is?
Anyway, my understanding is that the Smithsonian does not sell anything primarily because it would be a bureaucratic nightmare for its employees. It's a shame, because proceeds from the sale of an 1822 Half Eagle (and other duplicates) could help fill so many holes in the National Collection.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
What kind of coins are currently missing in the National Collection?
-Paul
Mr. Eureka: "Anyway, my understanding is that the Smithsonian does not sell anything primarily because it would be a bureaucratic nightmare for its employees."
I have heard various rumors, but I do not get the impression that anyone has thoroughly investigated the procedures that would be required for some duplicates to be sold. Has the Smithsonian ever de-accessioned any rare collectibles? Would an act of Congress be required?
Mr. Eureka: "It's a shame, because proceeds from the sale of an 1822 Half Eagle (and other duplicates) could help fill so many holes in the National Collection."
IMO, the Smithsonian has enough coins. Most coin experts do not even bother to visit and see many of the prize rarities. New acquisitions would not be a good idea.
Is there any living person who has seen all the U.S. coins in the NNC, or even half of them? There are also thousands of ancient coins, world coins, tokens and medals. There is more than enough material for dozens or hundreds of educational coin exhibits.
If duplicates could practically be sold, the revenues should be used to fund an endowed chair for a numismatic curator, pay salaries and other expenses (perhaps through the investment returns of a numismatics-only endowment), and finance coin exhibits. Additional funds could also be used to post high-resolution images, with accurate colors, of hundreds of coin rarities on the Smithsonian's web site.
The Top Ten Auction Records for Coins & Patterns, as of 02/13
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This coin is the subject of books and is one of the highlights of all 5 auctions. I was wondering how much it would go for which led me to the question I now pose---how many legitimate bidders do you think will there be for this coin ?
If I recall, there's an older thread on this very topic from last year or the year before. Maybe you can search for it and link to this thread. I seem to recall guesses up to $5 MILL. Some thought it was in the same league at those coins worth $5 MILL or more. In my mind you need PF/MS64 or higher condition to hit $5 MILL or more. I can see Mr. Eureka's $2 MILL to $6 MILL range.....with $3 MILL to $5 MILL as the sweet spot. Some of the rarities I've followed out of 1982 Eliasberg are worth 8X to 10X more today. So that would project to $5 MILL+ on the 1822 $5. Your downside is if the Smithsonian one day decides to let go of one of their $5's....this putting 2 into the public's hands. Having something that is basically "unique" in public hands is much different. The 1933 $20's are far from unique in public hands...despite there being only 1 officially "monetized" specimen. And that will likely change any ways.
This coin is the subject of books and is one of the highlights of all 5 auctions. I was wondering how much it would go for which led me to the question I now pose---how many legitimate bidders do you think will there be for this coin ?
If I recall, there's an older thread on this very topic from last year or the year before. Maybe you can search for it and link to this thread. I seem to recall guesses up to $5 MILL. Some thought it was in the same league at those coins worth $5 MILL or more. In my mind you need PF/MS64 or higher condition to hit $5 MILL or more. I can see Mr. Eureka's $2 MILL to $6 MILL range.....with $3 MILL to $5 MILL as the sweet spot. Some of the rarities I've followed out of 1982 Eliasberg are worth 8X to 10X more today. So that would project to $5 MILL+ on the 1822 $5.
I'm still a bit new to this forum and my search skills need work. But just to clarify--my question was regarding how many bidders for the coin---not the value of the coin. Thanks
Any one of the hundreds of people who register to bid at the auction would likely buy the coin at some price. Do you count them all?
Do you count someone that bids 100K online in the pre-auction activity? How about 300K? 500K?
Do you count someone who was willing to pay a seven figure price but never got his hand in the air?
Or do you mean "How many people will actually get their hand in the air?"
Confusing. Which is why I originally answered the way I did.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Any one of the hundreds of people who register to bid at the auction would likely buy the coin at some price. Do you count them all?
Do you count someone that bids 100K online in the pre-auction activity? How about 300K? 500K?
Do you count someone who was willing to pay a seven figure price but never got his hand in the air?
Or do you mean "How many people will actually get their hand in the air?"
Confusing. Which is why I originally answered the way I did.
My original post asked how many "legitimate bidders" for the coin. I was curious to hear the responses and will leave it up to people for their own definition of legitimate. At the end of the day, I inderstand no one knows before the auction the precise amount of bidders but it is fun to speculate. Thanks.
My original post asked how many "legitimate bidders" for the coin.
I would assume that an legitimate bidder is one who has the money to pay for their winning bid.
Who decides what's important enough to stay in the collection? I suppose we should have Forum polls to decide what goes and what stays?
Who picks which auction house to use? Will the auction house feel "indebted" to certain parties within SI as a result? Or should SI just blow 'em out on ebay?
Bear in mind this is the government making the decisions and not a for-profit enterprise. I'm sure there would be no politics as all
I agree it is kinda silly to have two 1822 $5s, but selling anything opens up a can of worms and threatens the long term stability of the collection.
My original post asked how many "legitimate bidders" for the coin.
I would assume that an legitimate bidder is one who has the money to pay for their winning bid.
I tend to agree with your description of legitimate. Also, I think my question about how many bidders was spurred by two things 1) of course this coin will go for a great deal of money and that will limit the number of bidders but more important is 2) the coin is one of the most legendary coins in numismatics. Many coins can be expensive but this one is special. David Akers said it "is the most famous and desirable United States gold coin." It's only been the subject to two public auctions --1906 and 1982.
So give the uniqueness of this coin, the price of the coin and its offering which may be once in our lifetime----i wondered how many legitimate bidders would appear. Thanks
Lots of good reasons for the Smithsonian to not sell coins.
Who decides what's important enough to stay in the collection? I suppose we should have Forum polls to decide what goes and what stays?
Who picks which auction house to use? Will the auction house feel "indebted" to certain parties within SI as a result? Or should SI just blow 'em out on ebay?
Bear in mind this is the government making the decisions and not a for-profit enterprise. I'm sure there would be no politics as all
I agree it is kinda silly to have two 1822 $5s, but selling anything opens up a can of worms and threatens the long term stability of the collection.
Oh puhleeze. Maybe they should just sell everything and then decide what to buy back. Might be easier
US Civil War coinage
Historical Medals
I'll,guess 7.5M to 9M. If this goes less than 5 M, I want in. Who's with me? Let's put a consortium together 250k minimum. This is a top 3 world class coin. Maybe top 2, behind 1794 $1 owned by one of our posters.
It is a GREAT coin. Just not sure what set it fits into that will entice TWO whales to go after it. Unless you go nuclear that is...
Smithsonian is the winning bidder.
Coin market implodes the next day.
On a more serious note, I think it will quite possibly go towards the high end of what people are thinking. It only requires two wealthy bidders who want to duke it out for the honor of owning it.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
What kind of coins are currently missing in the National Collection?
-Paul
Maybe they could put the money to use in a display so that more of the national collection could be seen by more more collectors.
That's a pipe dream, however.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
I notice that the estimate on this coin is given "upon request"
That way, they can raise the estimate every time a "legitimate bidder" asks.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I notice that the estimate on this coin is given "upon request"
That way, they can raise the estimate every time a "legitimate bidder" asks.
I would think the estimate will depend on how their bidder recruitment is going.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I'll,guess 7.5M to 9M. If this goes less than 5 M, I want in. Who's with me? Let's put a consortium together 250k minimum. This is a top 3 world class coin. Maybe top 2, behind 1794 $1 owned by one of our posters.
It is a GREAT coin. Just not sure what set it fits into that will entice TWO whales to go after it. Unless you go nuclear that is...
It looks like I am the most pessimistic here in this group and I agree with TDN.
If there would be two whale date collectors the coin should bring 5+ Mio USD, maybe more.
But as far as I am informed there are none.
That leaves us with someone going after the coin as a single trophy coin, but then again its not a mint state and it does not have great historical value like a 1804 Dollar.
My guess is that the coin will either not sell or just bring the reserve price of hammer 2.6 Mio.
its easy to say the coin is worth more and I want it and I would buy it even at 4 Mio, but thats just talking the walk, go and walk the walk, thats different !
Latin American Collection
I am not following this point. Although the Carter-Lustig-Cardinal 1794 dollar sold for more than $10 million, bids from $3 million to $5 million, adjusted for the juice, would certainly have been 'legitimate,' even if those bidders could not afford to spend $10 million for this coin.
Alternately, suppose that someone who can afford to buy many $500k coins bids $2k on a coin that eventually sells for $100k. Would such a $2k bid be "legitimate" or just a silly bid for fun?
Regarding the 1822, while I am not commenting on Mr. Eureka's numbers, his vision is not far off and is certainly well reasoned. I remember when he used to be a leading bidder for many Great Rarities.
Undoubtedly, there are many dealers who would be willing to pay a price in the lower part of the wholesale range and more than a few that would be willing to pay a price in the middle of the wholesale range. A smaller number of dealers would consider paying a moderate price, an amount around the border between wholesale and retail price ranges.
It is impossible to know how many dealers and collectors would have been willing to pay $X if a coin sells for much more than $X. Importantly, it does not make sense to try to predict retail participation. There might be collectors of antique tea kettles, baseball cards, armour, or timepieces who will seek this 1822 half eagle is a cool prize. Also, a coin collector in the past might return to buy this one coin. IMO, the game of predicting such prices is not educational.
What are Auction Prices?
and set a new all time record high price for a coin sold at auction.
(that would be shocking and awesome)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
What caught my eye was a offer of $29,000 for an 1822 $5 "that could be in your attic. 18,000 minted...do you have one!?" From what I remember, it was like a B. Max Mehl ad selling a book for about $1.
During my years working at A-Mark Coin Co. 1972-1978, I saw a number of rarities bought and sold. During those years, Bob Hughes bought one of two 1866 No Motto silver dollars for $32,000; we had a 1913 Liberty nickel on approval for $135,000 (We could not sell it and it was returned to World Wide Coin in Atlanta), 1827 quarter restrike, Wilkinson gold patterns ....
I love all three of the 1822 fives!
Michael
Maybe, just as the bidding is stalling somewhere between $2 and $3 million, someone will stand up and shout, "Eleven million!"
and set a new all time record high price for a coin sold at auction.
(that would be shocking and awesome)
What kind of fool would do something like that?
"The 1822 $5 is my favorite coin. I think it may have started with a DC comic book (Superman, Batman, etc.) from my childhood. It was around 1964-1965 that I noticed an ad selling a book listing "premium prices paid" for rare coins."
Though I have never really been all that interested in comic books, and "Michael" is evidently older than I am, my understanding from others is that there were ads in comic books in the 1960s to buy specific Great Rarities, especially 1913 Liberty Nickels and 1804 dollars, though perhaps not 1822 half eagles.
When I reviewed and analyzed the sale of the Mickley-Hawn-Queller-Greensboro 1804 dollar in 2013, Jim Halperin related that the buyer always wanted an 1804 dollar after seeing ads in comic books, decades earlier, that pictured 1804 dollars.
1804 Silver Dollar Sells for $3.88 million
Did any such ads depict 1822 half eagles? If 1804 dollars and 1913 Liberty Nickels were pictured, and "Michael" later saw a 1913 in the flesh at his place of employment, why would he pick an 1822 as a favorite? I conjecture that there were many Great Rarities mentioned in the 'buy list' that he received via an ad in a comic book.
1856-O Double Eagles and other Great Rarities that I have seen
Also, I would like to hear more about the rarities that "Michael" saw during his career. Did any of them end up in the Pogue Collection?
As one of the "senior" numismatists at A-Mark, Bob Hughes would be the best person to ask about the rarities that passed through A-Mark Coin in the mid-1970's. He attends most major shows and any of the larger dealers could point him out. Unfortunately, Steve Deeds and Michael Graham are no longer with us. Hugh Sconyers would be another to ask, but I have lost track of him.
These are some of the coins I remember:
1913 Liberty nickel (The one on Hawaii 5-O TV show); 1827 restrike 25C; Complete sets of C & D mint gold; 1866 No Motto $1 pattern; 1848 CAL $2.50; 1880 $4 Coiled Hair stella; 1907 $20 Judd 1776; 1792 Half dismes; 1796 Half cents, both types. Unsure which ones, if any, made it into the Pogue collection.
Re. comic book ads, although the 1913 5C and 1804 $1 were advertised more often, I do remember seeing the 1822 $5. To be clear, these ads were intended to sell the premium coin book, not expecting people to find major rarities!
Finally here are a few reasons why the 1822 $5 is my favorite and perhaps, why it will most likely bring an eight figure price at the May auction:
1. It is not a special issue or a coin purposely minted for collectors or VIPs.
2. Only 3 known, 2 in Smithsonian.
3. Not a condition rarity like the 1794 dollar. . .are three are circulated.
4. It was a legendary rarity since the 1800's.
25 DAYS TO GO!
C & D Mint Gold, being shipped to Texas,
were stolen at American Airlines at LAX?
This would have been in 1971/72, I believe.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I am annoyed with POR dealers and never ask. Guess I can now avoid EOR auction lots.
I only looked at the estimates for a couple coins, but those estimates seemed to be way too to me. Quite often auction houses low ball the estimates to generate more collector interest.
Finally here are a few reasons why the 1822 $5 is my favorite and perhaps, why it will most likely bring an eight figure price at the May auction:
1. It is not a special issue or a coin purposely minted for collectors or VIPs.
2. Only 3 known, 2 in Smithsonian.
3. Not a condition rarity like the 1794 dollar. . .are three are circulated.
4. It was a legendary rarity since the 1800's.
25 DAYS TO GO!
I could also consider points (1) and (3) as strong reasons why the 1822 won't bring 8 figures, or probably even close to that. If the coin were MS64/65 or higher it probably would be a cinch to hit $10 MILL. The Pogue 1804, J-1776, and the SP66 1794 $ would be my all time favorites because they were special presentations and in the highest of condition as well.
The US rare coin market has shifted dramatically away from plain rarity towards condition (ie choice/gem proofs/uncs) since the 1822 $5 was last sold 34 years ago. It's not the 1970's or early 1980's any more. Things have "evolved" a lot differently since then than many of us might have expected. Regular issue US coins with few surviving specimens and not worth near 8 figures: The 1853-0 NA half dollar only has 3 circs known yet the coins are worth under $500K. The 1870-s half dime is unique and was on the market for approx $2 MILL. There are also the assay coins like the 1873-cc NA 10c and 25c's.
But as TDN suggested....it only takes 2 whales.
Its not a historical coin like the 1794 Dollar or the 1804 Dollar.
Its not an unc coin, its AU 50.
And its a date without fame like the 1913 Nickel.
And as a date I dont think there are two whale date collectors out there.
Curious who will be right.
PRC
Fred W: Since I started at A-Mark on 9-11-72, I would guess the C & D mint gold sets were stolen in 1973. Wow...a few years ago!
Roadrunner and privaterarecoin make some good points. It's true, I certainly have a bias on rarity. I can honestly say that I never quite understood the premium that most coin buyers put on quality (i.e. Registry collectors, etc). A nice 1886-O dollar in MS64 at under $15K seems to make more sense to me than a 65 at ten times more.
Any final thoughts on this legendary rarity??? It does not have to relate to price or market value.
How many have seen one or both 1822 fives in the National Collection? Any guesses as to who will purchase it, or which dealer with be bidding as an agent for the buyer?
LET'S HERE FROM YOU! Old timers, newbies, and those inbetween!
Did I mention the 1822 Half Eagle is my favorite coin?!
Michael
<1822-$5-pogue-eliasberg.jpg />
Who would not want to own it, however?
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
The 22 is too rare for its own good. Part of a series few collect, not a 1st year type, and not high grade.
Who would not want to own it, however?
There is so much about this coin. Only two public auctions since it was minted. A fantastic pedigree that will instantly make the owner part of numismatic history. Owning a coin that literally has its own book written about it. I suspect that the individuals who are seriously considering this coin aren't talking and the ones talking aren't seriously considering it
I hope tomorrow's successful bidder starts with the 1822 and quietly and methodically puts together a complete set of $5 gold coins!!
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