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What areas of numismatics are "under" researched? Is there anything left to discover?
RB1026
Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭✭
Recently reading the masterful work on Eric P. Newman's life as a numismatic scholar ("Truth Seeker: The Life of Eric P. Newman") and then having gone through my own numismatic library, I've begun to wonder what frontiers are left out there for numismatists to explore?? I own dozens of wonderful books that seem to tell it all. Databases such as the Eric P. Newman Numismatic Portal, Coin Facts and others provide volumes of information.
When I think of a particular area or series, I can quickly find a guide or text devoted to it that seems to comprehensively explain even the smallest details. Are there still topics to explore? Where are the mysteries? What is left to be discovered?
I have a couple of ideas but will withhold them initially to see what everyone else comes up with.
When I think of a particular area or series, I can quickly find a guide or text devoted to it that seems to comprehensively explain even the smallest details. Are there still topics to explore? Where are the mysteries? What is left to be discovered?
I have a couple of ideas but will withhold them initially to see what everyone else comes up with.
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CN eBay
All of my collection is in a safe deposit box!
1. Pioneer & territorial gold. Much has happened since Kagin's book came out, and much of the information that John Ford 'contributed' needs to be re-examined.
2. 'Midnight minting' issues, going back into the 19th century.
3. A book focusing on the design of coins, including making the transition from plaster/wax models to dies and adapting artists' design concepts to make them more practical.
4. Differences in everyday coin circulation in various parts of the country, especially in the 19th century. Archaeological excavations have uncovered many interesting items in this regard.
5. The early half of the 20th century saw the rise of a number of very influential dealers, like Mehl, Raymond, Elder, Kosoff, who played major roles in shaping collector tastes.
6. A comprehensive book, with high-quality images, that teaches collectors how to spot altered coins. The ANA text is not good enough, in my opinion.
7. A comprehensive book on coin chemistry and metallurgy, covering redox reactions, alloying, surface treatments, natural and artificial toning (including color images of what results from various treatments), etc.
8. The politics of coin making: selection of coinage metals, changing designs, where to locate mint facilities, etc.
9. The use of Spanish Colonial coinage outside of Spanish territories (i.e, U. S., Canada, U.K., Australia, etc.).
10. Counterfeits (including electrotypes) made to fool collectors.
11. Coins and ingots recovered from shipwrecks in U. S. waters: what they teach us.
12.Medals, tokens, and other types of exonumia: plenty of room for more books.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Latin American Collection
Even civil war tokens lend to new discoveries ever year in a field that has been documented in some way ever since they were minted. Mysteries abound, and you don't have the usual stiff competition from the date/mint mark collectors
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Boosi:
A lot in the "Baltimore Book Auction, Sale 137" by Kolbe & Fanning, 11/14, included the following, with emphasis added here. This lot sold for a little more than $300.
http://www.icollector.com/Bree...d-Monographs_i20703702
http://www.icollector.com/Baltimore-Book-Auction-Sale-137_as34089
In any event, it seems to be true that new research on die varieties of Philadelphia Mint Liberty Head quarter eagles, half eagles, and eagles has not been done in a very long time. There is die variety information about many of the Branch Mint issues in works by Doug Winter.
I do not understand why more people do not collect Liberty Head quarter eagles 'by date.' During a span of nearly seventy years, there are only a few Great Rarities. A short set of coins from the 1840s could be completed for less than $5000 per coin:
Rare Gold Coins under $5000, Part 8: Liberty Head Quarter Eagles from the 1840s
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I am surprised by the $300 winning bid for the set of Breen booklets. I usually see sets of these for much less, and was unaware that Breen's signature carries that much cachet these days.
+1 . I think I paid about $60 for my bound set.
I'd like to see a book on the Snowden and Linderman restricting periods. A history of the coins restruck, like Half Cents, Gobrrect dollars, 1856 FE cents, 1804 dollars and patterns all in one book.
I agree. Some of these I implicitly referred to using the phrase 'midnight minting.'
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I highly doubt it. One example, I never saw any discussion about 1949 San Francisco Mint stuck Chinese Junk Dollars. Thought they are very common but I failed to see anyone talked about them.
explored areas. What we lack, it seems to me, are numismatic authors or those with sufficient
interest to tackle the project. Cheers, RickO
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Would love to see more books about collectors like the Newman book
There are some:
QD Bowers/Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.: King of Coins
QD Bowers/Virgil Brand: The Man and his Era. Profile of a Numismatist
K Flynn/John Story Jenks: A Great American Collector
Eric Newman made his personal correspondence available to the authors of his biography and gave interviews where he answered various questions. This kind of detail likely does not exist where other storied collectors are concerned. I would be quite interested to read a good book about Parmelee or Newcomer, for example, but there probably isn't enough reliable information to write one in either case. This is also a problem that will confront anyone attempting to write a biography of one of the great dealers like Max Mehl or John Ford.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Obsolete bank notes are better documented but a quick look through the listings of the Haxby catalog shows that there are far more unknown (SENC=Surviving Example Not Confirmed) listings than there are for known designs. Dozens of these SENC notes are discovered each year, too.
Many of these discoveries are the first time collectors have ever seen and documented these, and obsoletes have been collected since the Civil War.
With the availability of information today, many stories behind these notes can now be discovered and told, too.
Ronyahski: "I think I paid about $60 for my bound set."
I was not implying that the cited price realized was a good value. I certainly was not encouraging people to pay a large premium for a Breen signature. To those who are interested, I was pointing out that there exists a monograph that focuses upon die varieties of Liberty Head Half Eagles. In some cases, it is a good idea to post factual information, rather than opinions. I drew attention to a relevant auction lot of numismatic literature. My opinion is that, for most interested collectors, it would be more practical and enjoyable to collect Liberty Head Half Eagles 'by date' rather than by 'die variety.'
I think that it is unfortunate that there is so little interest in collecting Liberty Head Quarter Eagles 'by date.' For the decade of the 1840s, all could be obtained for less than $5000 each. This would seem to be a cool short set. Such a set includes coins from the Philadelphia, Charlotte, Dahlonega and New Orleans Mints. Copyright 2016 Greg Reynolds
Rare Gold Coins under $5000, Part 8: Liberty Head Quarter Eagles from the 1840s
Golden: "There is not much information on Half Dimes."
There is not much information regarding gem quality half dimes. In regard to circulated coins, die varieties and the history of the series, the Logan-McCloskey book is very impressive. Charles Davis, Rich Uhrich or Kolbe & Fanning may have copies available.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 2: The Oliver Jung 1833 Half Dime
Gazes: "Would love to see more books about collectors like the Newman book."
The Dazzling Collecting Journey of Dr. Steven Duckor
I think that it is unfortunate that there is so little interest in collecting Liberty Head Quarter Eagles 'by date.' For the decade of the 1840s, all could be obtained for less than $5000 each. This would seem to be a cool short set. Such a set includes coins from the Philadelphia, Charlotte, Dahlonega and New Orleans Mints.
The toughest coin in that 1840's run is likely the 1842 $2.5 which for many years was considered a great rarity. Today it is not given that status as it is likely that it was at one point confused with the 1841 which is currently recognized as a proof only issue, though that is still debated.
This is my 1842 $2.5 P45 CAC. With an extant population of 50-60 coins, this is a very difficult issue and great value.
Im sure you could do this date run for under $5,000 per coin if you apply cost averaging, paying up for issues like the 40-D and saving on some of the more common Philly and New Orleans issues. The toughest part of this set would be finding the 42, 44, 40-D, 41-D, 42-D, 46-D, 42-C, 46-C, 45-O in acceptable condition to create a balanced set.
Latin American Collection
I agree that is a "very difficult issue" and a good value. It may not be quite as rare, though, as Boosibri suggests. As I indicated in my article, there could be as many as 70 and I really believe that around 40 different 1842 quarter eagles have received numerical grades from PCGS or ATS. I also mentioned the Eric Newman 1842, which realized $3818.75 when market levels were higher than they are now. It is realistic to expect to acquire an 1842 for less than $5000.
The 1840-D is in the same category of rarity as the 1842. It is not clear to me which is rarer.
Boosibri: "Im sure you could do this date run for under $5,000 per coin if you apply cost averaging, paying up for issues like the 40-D ... "
I am not sure what Boosibri means by a 'Balanced Set,' which, however defined, would be more difficult than a complete set. A set of LH Quarter Eagles from the 1840s could really be completed without spending more than $5000 on any one coin. There is no need for "cost averaging." For each date, I provide an explanation.
It could be true that Boosibri is saying that an 1840-D and an 1842 that Boosibri finds to be both sufficiently original and gradable would cost more than $5000 each. I would not dispute such a point.
Rare Gold Coins under $5000, Part 8: Liberty Head Quarter Eagles from the 1840s
BoosiBri: "... the 1841 ... is currently recognized as a Proof-only issue, though that is still debated."
Who is continuing the debate? In my three part series, I intended to demonstrate that it is extremely likely that all 1841 quarter eagles were struck as Proofs. Possibly, a few were failed Proofs. If there still is anyone who thinks most or any 1841 quarter eagles are business strikes, I would be delighted to further debate the topic. Please start a new thread.
The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 3, The physical characteristics of Proof coins
BTW, BoosiBri appears to have a reall neat 1842; I am impressed.
(Edited to effect minor corrections on 03/16/16 10:40 PM ET)
Your estimate is 55-70, mine is 50-60, that's about the same really isn't it.
I am suggesting that accumulating 1840's QE's is one method and i'm sure can be done with sub-quality coins very cheaply but what is the point of that? Putting together a choice EF set which has original skin is much more of an effort and an accomplishment. To do so cost averaging is likely needed to balance the tougher issues with the more available ones.
On the 1841, I believe I am recalling PCGS beginning to recognize the 1841 QE as a circulation strike: PCGS Will Recognize 1841 Circulation Strikes
Latin American Collection
This is my 1842 $5 P45 CAC. With an extant population of 50-60 coins, this is a very difficult issue and great value.
That looks a lot like a $2.50, not a $5
Nice coin, anyway.
Latin American Collection
Would love to see more books about collectors like the Newman book
There are some:
QD Bowers/Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr.: King of Coins
QD Bowers/Virgil Brand: The Man and his Era. Profile of a Numismatist
K Flynn/John Story Jenks: A Great American Collector
Eric Newman made his personal correspondence available to the authors of his biography and gave interviews where he answered various questions. This kind of detail likely does not exist where other storied collectors are concerned. I would be quite interested to read a good book about Parmelee or Newcomer, for example, but there probably isn't enough reliable information to write one in either case. This is also a problem that will confront anyone attempting to write a biography of one of the great dealers like Max Mehl or John Ford.
Thanks for the suggestions !
Desert Rat: "I am surprised by the $300 winning bid for the set of Breen booklets. I usually see sets of these for much less, and was unaware that Breen's signature carries that much cachet these days."
Ronyahski: "I think I paid about $60 for my bound set."
I was not implying that the cited price realized was a good value. I certainly was not encouraging people to pay a large premium for a Breen signature. To those who are interested, I was pointing out that there exists a monograph that focuses upon die varieties of Liberty Head Half Eagles. In some cases, it is a good idea to post factual information, rather than opinions. I drew attention to a relevant auction lot of numismatic literature. My opinion is that, for most interested collectors, it would be more practical and enjoyable to collect Liberty Head Half Eagles 'by date' rather than by 'die variety.'
I think that it is unfortunate that there is so little interest in collecting Liberty Head Quarter Eagles 'by date.' For the decade of the 1840s, all could be obtained for less than $5000 each. This would seem to be a cool short set. Such a set includes coins from the Philadelphia, Charlotte, Dahlonega and New Orleans Mints. Copyright 2016 Greg Reynolds
Rare Gold Coins under $5000, Part 8: Liberty Head Quarter Eagles from the 1840s
Golden: "There is not much information on Half Dimes."
There is not much information regarding gem quality half dimes. In regard to circulated coins, die varieties and the history of the series, the Logan-McCloskey book is very impressive. Charles Davis, Rich Uhrich or Kolbe & Fanning may have copies available.
The Marvelous Pogue Family Coin Collection, Part 2: The Oliver Jung 1833 Half Dime
Gazes: "Would love to see more books about collectors like the Newman book."
The Dazzling Collecting Journey of Dr. Steven Duckor
Thank you for the link to the Duckor article---didn't want it to end !
I never said the Newman 1842 was 'problem free'! It is better than many quarter eagles of the time period that have received numerical grades. The point was that it costs less than $5000 as that article was about completing a short set without spending more than $5000 on any one coin. Also, it has a famous pedigree.
BoosiBri: "I am suggesting that accumulating 1840's QE's is one method and i'm sure can be done with sub-quality coins very cheaply but what is the point of that?"
Before publicly criticizing the purpose of the whole article, it would have been a good idea to read the 4th paragraph: "For collectors who appreciate rarity more so than quality, quarter eagles from the 1840s are excellent values from a logical perspective. With a $5000 per coin limit, Liberty Head quarter eagles are not a series for connoisseurs or those who frequently examine coins under very high magnification. These are for collectors who enjoy building sets, are geared towards the traditions of coin collecting, and appreciate the roles that coins played in commerce."Copyright 2016 Greg Reynolds
BoosiBri: "Putting together a choice EF set which has original skin is much more of an effort and an accomplishment. "
Not all collectors are as rich as BoosiBri. There are many collectors who wish to enjoy collecting 19th century gold coins who cannot afford coins that grade 45 or higher and are especially original. Also, as I said, there are some collectors who are more interested in history and/or building sets than in quality. It is okay for a collector to buy a problem-ridden coin if he understands that it has problems before he buys it. It makes sense to take the problems into consideration when deciding how much to pay.
BoosiBri: "On the 1841, I believe I am recalling PCGS beginning to recognize the 1841 QE as a circulation strike ... "
I implored BoosiBri to start a new thread on the 1841, which he did not do. So, I respond here.
The shocking change in PCGS policy spurred me to write that series of articles, which BoosiBri has not read. I cited the change in PCGS policy and I drew attention to a research document that was published by PCGS. Of course, I encourage all interested collectors to read this document that was then published by PCGS. Inside, Ron Guth and JD make it clear that they opposed the change in PCGS policy.
Please check the PCGS grading guarantee, in which there is an exception for 1841 quarter eagles;
1841 $2.5 Liberty. Recent research has caused many experts to conclude that both proof and circulation strike 1841 Quarter Eagles were minted. On February 7, 2012, PCGS began certifying some 1841 Quarter Eagles as circulation strikes. Should further research determine that all 1841 Quarter Eagles are Proofs, their change in status would not be covered by the PCGS grading guarantee.
IMO, "further research" indicated just that, my research:
The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 3, The physical characteristics of Proof coins
The Controversy over 1841 Quarter Eagles, Part 1
Moderns. I.E., Clad coinage from 1965-date. Where o' where is your book Cladking?
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
Analyst, you are allowed to post a thread, why do I need to do that for you...?
Analyst: Not all collectors are as rich as BoosiBri. There are many collectors who wish to enjoy collecting 19th century gold coins who cannot afford coins that grade 45 or higher and are especially original. Also, as I said, there are some collectors who are more interested in history and/or building sets than in quality. It is okay for a collector to buy a problem-ridden coin if he understands that it has problems before he buys it. It makes sense to take the problems into consideration when deciding how much to pay.
I am far from rich. I would rather encourage collectors to buy one fantastic coin which stands out from the pack at $5,000 than five marginal or sub-standard coins for $1,000 each. It isn't about being rich it is about being appreciative of what makes the coin special in the first place. A philosophy of accumulation will only lead to big losses and illiquid coins in this day and age. I am sure that some people have a different philosophy, and that is perfectly fine. My push is that characterizing potential sets at less than $5,000 which implicitly requires the pursuer to buy problem coins to make the budget is a bit misleading though I know that is not your intention. A set is defined by it's keys. Having high AU common dates and VF problem key dates isn't a very compelling endeavor.
I started out collecting rare gold coins with a focus on the undervalued dates priced around $2,000 - $3,000 per coins which is all that I could afford on what is a modest budget for being a gold collector. I have a passion for quality so an intersection between rarity and quality was my focus. I have written on those undervalued dates in the past and in a blog with Doug Winter. Perhaps Greg an article on coins for under $5,000 where a collector can have rarity AND quality.
Consider the following gold issues (which is what I know, Im sure you can add others given your broader perspective):
1842 $5 Large Letters - Rarest pre Civil War half eagle, 50-60 know. A choice AU can be had for $3500-$4000. See the Bently piece which I bought for something like $3,000. It is now in the personal collection of a rare gold dealer.
1839 $2.5 - Probably the toughest (though not most expensive) Classic Head QE. Great value at $2,000 - $3,000 in AU
1844 $2.5 - Second rarest $2.5 behind the 42. Both Could be argued to be available in VF/EF for under $5,000
Semi-key No Motto $5's: Try the 1846 SD, 1849, 1850, 1858, 1859, 1860 - All have about 75-125 extant and all can be had for about $2,000 in AU58 CAC. That is good value!
Any choice gold piece with 1 in 100 color. Color on gold which is the result of natural toning processes is dramatically undervalued in today's market.
Latin American Collection
The more you know the more you realize you don't know... And this applies to coins. The real question is whether there is interest including all the details that seem to have fallen through the cracks.
I think I understand your point here. I fell like I know enough about incomplete plachets to fill a book, and I've toyed with the idea of writing one, but I honestly don't think there would be enough people interested in reading it to justify the time / financial investment.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
In this case, there is a good reason. While the controversy over 1841 quarter eagles was the most exciting topic 'in the news' in 2012, around four years have passed. It would not be fair to those who maintain that most 1841 quarter eagles are business strikes for me to continuously challenge their position, especially if many people are not currently thinking about the matter.
If a prominent collector starts a thread about the Proof status of 1841 quarter eagles and other collectors participate, then it would make sense for me to re-introduce my arguments and continue the debate, which I honestly believe is extremely important and fascinating. The subject matter has implications that extend far beyond 1841 quarter eagles.
In other metals and time periods, there are coins that are certified as Proofs that might not be Proofs and there are coins that are certified as business strikes that are really Special Strikings. Although I am not claiming to be 'right' every time, unlike other researchers, I actually spell out reasons as to why specific coins are Proofs or non-Proof Specimens.
The Fabulous Eric Newman Collection, Part 4: Proof 1818 Quarter
Incredible Carter-Lustig-Cardinal-Morelan 1794 silver dollar
BoosiBri: "I am far from rich. I would rather encourage collectors to buy one fantastic coin which stands out from the pack at $5,000 than five marginal or sub-standard coins for $1,000 each. It isn't about being rich it is about being appreciative of what makes the coin special in the first place. "
Most collectors do not know how to conceptualize the degree of originality of a classic U.S. coin. It takes years to learn and requires a natural aptitude. Most baseball enthusiasts will never be able to bat .300 in the major leaguers or even in the minors! While many of my articles are aimed at connoisseurs and others who understand originality, I also cater to the demands, interests and approaches of collectors with other philosophies.
Within reason, I have respect for people who have political views that are different from my own. I have respect for people who like to assemble sets and are not very concerned about quality. As I will never understand why someone would drink a $10,000 bottle of wine, or even pay that amount for a bottle, there are some collectors who will never appreciate or even be able identify 19th century gold coins that are very much original. They are part of the coin community, too, and they deserve respect. Assembling a set with many problem-ridden, truly rare coins, can be a noble quest, providing that coin buyers are aware that selected coins have problems and/or are not very original.
BoosiBri: "Semi-key No Motto $5's: Try the 1846 SD, 1849, 1850, 1858, 1859, 1860 - All have about 75-125 extant and all can be had for about $2,000 in AU58 CAC. That is good value!"
Yes, agreed, I never suggested otherwise. I have already written an article on 'No Motto' tens for under $5000 each. I never intended to write these articles in some kind of order, as I need to cover a variety of topics each year. An article in this series on 'No Motto' fives has been on the agenda. BoosiBri is invited to contribute. I did read BoosiBri's article that was published on Winter's site, and I recommend it.
Rare Gold Coins under $5000 each, Part 4: ‘No Motto’ Liberty Eagles
"Undervalued No Motto Liberty Head Half Eagles" by BoosiBri
insightful10@gmail.com
Latin American Collection
Moderns. I.E., Clad coinage from 1965-date. Where o' where is your book Cladking?
HH
I would truly love to write it. When I came here 14 years ago it was very much on the back burner and I seriously considered getting it to the front burner a couple of times. Things have changed a lot and my plates are running over.
You'll probably know if I ever start it since I'll need help and research material.
Modern circulating coinage is woefully underresearched and beneath the radar. It's a shame since this has been one of the most important eras of human history and will long be remembered. It would be nice if the coinage of the era were remembered as well, and preferably fondly.
Gonna need some of those little arrows to show what to look for...
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Cheers
Bob
Relic medals are another area that can use some research.