What does Improperly Cleaned mean to you?

TopographicOceans · February 6, 2016 10:33PM

There are a lot of blast white coins in TPG holders which have obviously been dipped.

I think during the 1960's there was a coin collecting boom and there was a demand for white cleaned coins.

But where is the line between a dipped coin and a TPG Improperly Cleaned designation?

jmski52 · February 6, 2016 10:42PM

When the luster and original surfaces are irreparably altered by the acidic removal of metal and/or natural oxidation products?

lkeigwin · February 6, 2016 11:24PM

To quote PCGS on cleaning...

"Surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin. This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions. "Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning under this definition."

ricko · February 7, 2016 2:24AM

Controlled dipping is acceptable..... harsh dipping is not acceptable. Cleaning that leaves visible signs is not acceptable. Conservation by professionals is acceptable by some and not by others.

Cheers, RickO

acloco · February 7, 2016 2:59AM

Why is ANY cleaning/enhancing allowed?

Changing the condition of a coin, is, technically, cleaning.

If something is on the surface, being removed by any method, then....that is cleaning!

chumley · February 7, 2016 3:20AM

improper cleaning was the term my mother used when I took an unsupervised bath,as a young guy

golden · February 7, 2016 3:37AM

Originally posted by: chumley
improper cleaning was the term my mother used when I took an unsupervised bath,as a young guy

Sonorandesertrat · February 7, 2016 4:10AM

Originally posted by: golden

Originally posted by: chumley
improper cleaning was the term my mother used when I took an unsupervised bath,as a young guy

POTW, take a bow.

WinLoseWin · February 7, 2016 4:15AM

Originally posted by: lkeigwin

To quote PCGS on cleaning...

"Surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin. This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions. "Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning under this definition."

It is anything the market considers distracting. It can be anywhere from barely detectible to harsh.

The line between acceptable dipping and dipping which is considered bad by the market comes down to whether it left obvious distracting evidence such as etching by overdipping or etching because toning was more deeply into the surface, which could happen even on a one time quick dip. That might have been the case with the Norweb former MS-67 1893-S dollar.

The PCGS definition explains the market view pretty well. Then add into the mix that everyone's opinion can vary from another's.

Cougar1978 · February 7, 2016 4:30AM

Improperly Cleaned in my view would be visible cleaning marks, impaired luster from over dipping. It is simply par for the course for coins to be dipped if needed. Once one gains experience you can get a feel for what are good candidates for dipping and those not.

BillJones · February 7, 2016 5:52AM

Originally posted by: Cougar1978
Improperly Cleaned in my view would be visible cleaning marks, impaired luster from over dipping. It is simply par for the course for coins to be dipped if needed. Once one gains experience you can get a feel for what are good candidates for dipping and those not.

This is an excellent description.

The purists won't like this coin, but here is a prime example of properly dipped coin.

I bought this 1875-S Twenty Cent Piece in December 1995, 20 years ago. It is in an old green label holder, which means it was slabbed a few years before that. It is not changed in all of that time, and if you could have seen this coin on the day it was minted, it would have looked virtually like like the image you see. Dipping is not the death sentence that some people think that it is, or want to make it seem that it is.

Baley · February 7, 2016 5:54AM

"Improperly cleaned" to me means: Abrasively cleaned (with visual evidence, i.e hairline scratches or worse) of any grade coin. It also means dipped and stripped for any coin grading below about AU55. (with or without hairlines). And to me, it's a matter of degree, not a binary thing. The binary part of the term is probably the biggest problem in numismatics, IMO, besides the increasing quality of outright counterfeits.

ebaybuyer · February 7, 2016 6:46AM

improper cleaning is a term dreamed up by TPG's to describe a cleaning that wasn't paid for. there are two types of coins, original and cleaned. properly dipped or improperly cleaned is still cleaned, one may sound better than the other but neither one looks or is original

DennisH · February 7, 2016 8:06AM

It means I'm not interested.

deefree49 · February 7, 2016 8:18AM

Being an older guy who is used to coins being "as found", I have a hard time excepting any kind of chemical alteration whatsoever. I understand this is a gray area and many collectors prefer shiny white as opposed to dingy toned. I still prefer completely original surfaces and because of that, now I actually shy away from "Red copper" coins. All but one of my PCGS slabs are BN or RB. I own only one RD.

Naturally toned coins can be beautiful too, so it isn't as though there is nothing interesting for me to collect in BN or RB. Unfortunately, chemists have now found ways to chemically tone coins too. I find the whole subject disturbing. To me, altered is altered. Back in the days when I first began collecting, that was the prevailing attitude. It has definitely changed.

Broadstruck · February 7, 2016 8:48AM

I only own this which has no hairlines and based on what I've seen in holders in the last 5 years feel it might straight grade.

1855-P 50c w/ Arrows Bugert & Wiley unlisted Uncentered Broadstrike Mint Error NCS AU Details Improperly Cleaned.

(scratch on Liberty's shoulder in on the holder)

davewesen · February 7, 2016 1:49PM

Nothing without seeing the coin, as some 'improperly cleaned' coins can be properly dirtied to make it into a straight slab.

There are many versions of 'improperly cleaned'.

Steve1124 · February 7, 2016 1:59PM

As a collector, there's hardly anything more annoying than sending in a coin to a respected TPG, only to have it come back with the dreaded "cleaning" (or "improperly cleaned" as NGC prefers to call it) qualifier. The problem, in my opinion, is the degree of cleaning, which is never mentioned on the label. As has been pointed out by others here, the visual effect of cleaning can vary greatly. There are coins that technically may have been cleaned long ago, and yet hardly bear any obvious signs that they were tampered with. Others, it is painfully obvious, with harsh hairlines, or blatant evidence of having been scrubbed or otherwise played with. But to give all these coins the same "cleaning" (or "improperly cleaned") qualifier is doing an injustice to the coin, and to it's owner. As a solution, I would suggest "qualifying the qualifier" by simply assigning a number along with the cleaning term, of 1, 2, or 3; with '1' being the least noticeable, and therefore least damning to the coin's value. A '3' would be the extreme, with harsh, and very obvious cleaning that significantly detracts from the coin's appearance. A '2' would be those with moderate cleaning, that fall somewhere in between the other two extremes; most would fall into this category. At least by "qualifying" the degree of cleaning in this manner, would serve to not "scare off" potential buyers of a coin, if for example it only had a "cleaning - 1" notation, rather than just basically throwing them all on the "junk heap", and condemning them by the too general qualifier of simply saying "cleaning" on the label.

lkeigwin · February 7, 2016 2:04PM

Here are some dipped coins. I'm okay with them.

Lance.

BryceM · February 7, 2016 2:23PM

I tend to look at cleaning and dipping as completely separate entities. To me, dipping is more closely aligned with environmental damage, or more precisely, a treatment that reveals underlying environmental (chemical) damage. For silver coins, at least, I'm of the opinion that dipping only removes silver that has already chemically reacted with something in the environment (usually sulfur). I did a little experiment that proved (to me at least) that leaving a toned coin in a dilute acid (typical dip compound) for up to 24 hours had no more effect than did a 2 minute dip.

If the depth of chemical tarnish (toning) isn't too great, the post-dip look will be pretty nice and still show luster. If the toning extends too far into the surface of the coin, the dip will strip all of that away and you'll be left with a dull, lifeless coin. What confuses this a bit is that different coins had different amounts of luster to start with. Early die-state coins are often satiny or prooflike, and demonstrate poor luster despite better detail.

Oddly enough, the patina (tarnish) layer actually protects the coin to a certain degree from further attack. Stripping this protective layer away leaves raw silver at the surface, and it will react even more quickly. Go through this cycle too many times and the original surfaces are forever gone.

Cleaning to me is physical (as opposed to chemical) disruption of the surfaces of the coin. When slight, this sort of thing is often excused, but when it becomes distracting, hairlines or polished surfaces will keep it out of a holder. The exact boundary line between OK and unacceptable is not well defined. In extreme cases we call it tooling or whizzing.

Get enough toning on a coin and you can hide all sorts of surface problems, which is the ugly downside of dipping...... sometimes you'll uncover more problems than you've removed.

At the end of the day, luster and eye appeal really are king. You can artificially create color and cover hits, but restoring luster without sacrificing detail isn't yet something we're confronted with. Eventually, the guys with the lasers might get this down to where it's widespread and if they do, it will have significant negative impacts.....

DollarAfterDollar · February 7, 2016 11:15PM

Improperly cleaned is the designation GUARANTEED to be assessed to at least one coin in every 10 coin submission I ship here or ATS. Nevermind that I spend an hour reviewing every coin determining grade and originality.

When they come back the only evidence of cleaning is the label.

gsa1fan · February 8, 2016 12:44AM

Sounds like some new grading twist coming. The plus and star have been used. Maybe we can get a smiley face for a 100% original surface coin.

johnny9434 · February 8, 2016 3:14AM

i never really liked a cleaned coin by any standard. jmo & fwiw.

19Lyds · February 8, 2016 5:36AM

To me, the term "Improperly Cleaned" means that the coin was "possibly" or "most assuredly" damaged during the cleaning process what ever it might have been.

I also understand that "Improperly Cleaned" is nothing more than an opinion which I and a professional grader(s) may or may not agree with.

What does Improperly Cleaned mean to you?

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