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New Guy with a Question

Hello to everyone, I am new to this message board. I have a question concerning accurate valuation of 1861-O seated half $ die varieties. As many here doubtless know, the New Orleans Mint changed hands twice in 1861. Recent research has established, or at least is claimed to have established, which of the fifteen 1861-O obverse/reverse die combinations were struck under federal authority, which were struck under State of Louisiana authority, and which were minted under CSA authority. Being a Civil War history and artifact buff, I am endeavoring to collect a nice example of an 1861-O 50c struck under each of the three minting authorities. Thus far, I have acquired a WB-103 (CSA) example in PCGS AU-53, and a WB-101, die pair 7 (State of LA) example in PCGS MS-64. I am still looking for the right federal authority example, which is supposedly the scarcest of the three. PCGS has only recently begun adding die variety information to its 1861-O half $ holders, and I suspect it will be a while before the PCGS on-line Price Guide catches up to this innovation in any meaningful way. So I seek the collective wisdom of the folks here to help me to decide how much to be willing to pay for a nice WB-101 die pair 1 or 2 example in some grade between AU-53 and MS-62 inclusive. On a percentage basis, how much of a premium over the undifferentiated listings in the PCGS Price Guide attach to examples from each of the three minting authorities?



Thanks in advance for sharing your expertise.
Beginning (again) in coins; 35+ yr collector/researcher/author in early American pocket watches; Civil War watch, coin and history buff; physicist by day, banjo picker and aspiring sci-fi fantasy writer by night.

Comments

  • DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    I suggest watching the offerings of the big Liberty Seated dealers and the auctions of LS coinage to get a good idea of where these coins are being priced.



    You might also ask this question on the discussion boards of the Liberty Seated Collectors Club.

    Check out the Southern Gold Society

  • FlatwoodsFlatwoods Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welcome watchcollectortoo!

    I love the personal info. in your sig. line.

    .

    I wish I could help with your question but that is a pretty specific collecting area.

    Good luck in your search.

    It is a highly interesting subject for research.
  • winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    Welcome aboard and good luck with your collection. I collect seated dimes.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welcome and great post!

    Hopefully roadrunner or RichUrich or one of the other seated coin buffs will be along shortly
    with some info for you.

    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    image
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's going to come down to how badly you want to complete your set. I personally wouldn't apply much of a premium to the LA and Federal varieties. If anything, I find the LA variety more intriguing than a federal issue. The CSA/civil war demand is a large influence. I doubt having other Federal varieties being rarer means much here. Collectors can identify with a CSA minted coin....and much less with a Federal. Premiums? Not much imo, if any over what a regular type coin of this date brings. Since the 3 minting locations make up 100% of this common date, it can't be that any one of them is therefore "rare" and worth a huge premium because of that. The CSA halves are desired by Civil War enthusiasts because of the Confederacy linkage...not rarity. They could care less about rarity. I would trust the date is common enough that you should be able to locate examples of your missing variety for no premium. Most sellers won't have a clue on this date other than CSA and non-CSA.



    This is not my wheelhouse so I'm only applying my own logic. Civil War collectibles are in strong demand by themselves....esp. CSA struck coins. They are possibly more CW memorabilia than coin. Considering that approx 20% of the orig mintage are the Federal varieties you seek (500,000 approx mintage), then finding an example should logically be no more challenging that finding an 1851-0 half (400K mintage)...and the 51-0 went through the melting wars of the early 1850's. I would think the 1851-0 carries a stiffer price and more popularity than a regular 1861-0. My WB half dollar variety book was purchased over 10 years ago...and the data on 1861-0 Federal/CSA/LA dies was listed in it. So it's not that new of information.



    Don't rely on PCGS price guide because those might start you out at 50% over wholesale. By posting your "want list" here you may have also given others the idea to compete to find one....where you end up paying more than you should. Doing enough independent research and thinking of your own will give you the answer as to any premiums each of the varieties bring.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Welcome aboard watchcollectort.., I collect Jefferson nickels!
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The original book on Liberty Seated Half Dollars (Wiley - Bugert) was published in 1993, and it identified the approximate number of each of the three coins issued, but it did not define the diagnostics of the Union coins, nor many of the Louisiana and CSA coins. The diagnostics info on Union, Louisiana, and CSA half dollars for 1861-O was first published in The Gobrecht Journal Issue 94 in November 2005, in an article by Randall Wiley. Subsequently, Bill Bugert published "A Register of Liberty Seated Half Dollar Varieties Volume IV, New Orleans Branch Mint, 1853-O WA to 1861-O" in 2013. Mr. Bugert's book includes large pictures and makes it easier to identify the Union and other varieties.



    Full disclosure: I sell 1861-O halves including the Union die marriages. Randy Wiley is a good friend, and Bill Bugert is a good friend and one of my table *****istants.



    The 1861-O Union die halves are one of the most-requested coins by my customers. And they are rare. I have been buying them for several years and haven't found many at all. And they do bring a premium. I sold a PCGS MS-64 half, Union die marriage, to another dealer for a client, the final sale price was somewhere in the $7,000 - $8,000 area. That is certainly a premium over a regular 1861-O half. The Union 1861-O half is far, far, far rarer than the WB-102 CSA issue 1861-O half, with the die crack from the nose to the rim, but the WB-102 is still priced higher despite it being far more common. We currently have 4 1861-O Union halves in stock, and that is because they are rare, just because we have 4 of something does not mean it is common; in fact, I don't think there are any others (attributed) currently for sale.

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey, Watchcollectort.., check out Gerry Fortin's website, GLRC. He specializes in seated material. Mostly dimes, I think, but there's a lot of good info there. He's the man.



  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Two articles in the Gobrecht Journal contain Randy Wiley's definitive work on the subject of 1861-O half dollar die varieties and the *****ociated coining authorities:



    Gobrecht Journal #94 -- https://archive.org/details/gobrechtjournalfn094libe



    Gobrecht Journal #97 -- https://archive.org/details/gobrechtjournalfn097libe







  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What you can get for die varieties depends on how much demand has been generated for them and the wealth of the interested collectors. Did the research on these die varieties generate a market for them? I don't know the answer to this question but I can say that, personally, I would pay no premium for any 1861-O half dollar variety unless I was certain that a strong two-way market existed for such varieties. I'm not convinced that any such two-way market exists.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • Thanks to everyone for their information and candid opinions. I will definitely follow up on all the leads I have been given.



    I already have a copy of Bill Bugert's 2013 Book on 1861-O halves, signed by Bill Bugert at Rich Uhrich's table at one of the PAN Coin shows in Monroeville, PA. (Howdy, Rich. Thanks for your input. The fact that you post here tells me I am in the right place.) That book is definitive as far as die varieties are concerned, but of course, it contains no information on market values, nor could it. Some auction lot descriptions already include die variety attributions for 1861-O holders lacking this information, such as the Heritage auction in which my MS-64 LA example was sold. I suppose, though, that as 1861-O PCGS holders including die variety information proliferate, and auction results of those coins begin to appear, it may be possible to get a better read on the magnitude of the premiums on certain varieties.
    Beginning (again) in coins; 35+ yr collector/researcher/author in early American pocket watches; Civil War watch, coin and history buff; physicist by day, banjo picker and aspiring sci-fi fantasy writer by night.

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