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1943 Copper Cents - Are they usually well struck?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the old days, people used to say that any real 1943 Copper Cent would have to be well struck. In recent years, I've seen some in slabs that were not even close to well struck. What's up with that?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

Comments

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah I've heard that too as the die pressure was adjusted to strike on steel and the thought was the transitional coppers where struck during a early die stage.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have never had the pleasure of holding a 1943 copper cent to determine that.... wish I could... Cheers, RickO
  • winkywinky Posts: 1,671
    My check book isn't big enough to even hold one of those. What if I dropped it?image
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think one person owns a few. Legend folks would probably be able to answer this question
    as I think they have handled a couple.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • luckybucksluckybucks Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭
    The closest I have ever come is seeing a fake.
  • I had not noticed this, but they do seem weak after looking at some copper 43's online. The Simpson '43-D and '43-S look very well struck (particularly the '43-D.)

    You'd think they would be since the copper cents are 3.1 grams and the steel are 2.7 grams. Presumably, the steel cents would be thinner than the copper, which would make for a stronger strike for the copper planchet if it was struck in a press with die-clearance for a steel cent. A thicker planchet always makes for a stronger strike.

    I'd also wonder what the striking pressure for steel cents was VS copper cents. More questions than answers.
    www.sullivannumismatics.com Dealer in Mint Error Coins.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of my recurring dreams is finding one of these while searching old wheaties......dreams...yep...Cheers, RickO
  • MonsterCoinzMonsterCoinz Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭✭✭
    www.MonsterCoinz.com | My Toned Showcase

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  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,349 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Almost relevant >>



    I have one of those. Worth $56? hmmm


    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I had not noticed this, but they do seem weak after looking at some copper 43's online. The Simpson '43-D and '43-S look very well struck (particularly the '43-D.)

    You'd think they would be since the copper cents are 3.1 grams and the steel are 2.7 grams. Presumably, the steel cents would be thinner than the copper, which would make for a stronger strike for the copper planchet if it was struck in a press with die-clearance for a steel cent. A thicker planchet always makes for a stronger strike.

    I'd also wonder what the striking pressure for steel cents was VS copper cents. More questions than answers. >>



    Since steel is less dense than copper, a steel cent of the same thickness as a bronze cent would weigh less. I would expect that the weight of the steel cent was set at a point that the coin would be approximately the same thickness as the bronze.

    I have handled a few 1943 bronze cents. I do not recall notice any exceptionally strong strikes on them.

    Was the Mint using dual or quad-feed presses in 1943? If the press was striking one bronze planchet and either 1 or 3 steel planchets on the same stroke, the steel planchets would determine when and where the die assembly came to a stop.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CuKevinCuKevin Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I had not noticed this, but they do seem weak after looking at some copper 43's online. The Simpson '43-D and '43-S look very well struck (particularly the '43-D.)

    You'd think they would be since the copper cents are 3.1 grams and the steel are 2.7 grams. Presumably, the steel cents would be thinner than the copper, which would make for a stronger strike for the copper planchet if it was struck in a press with die-clearance for a steel cent. A thicker planchet always makes for a stronger strike.

    I'd also wonder what the striking pressure for steel cents was VS copper cents. More questions than answers. >>



    Since steel is less dense than copper, a steel cent of the same thickness as a bronze cent would weigh less. I would expect that the weight of the steel cent was set at a point that the coin would be approximately the same thickness as the bronze.

    I have handled a few 1943 bronze cents. I do not recall notice any exceptionally strong strikes on them.

    Was the Mint using dual or quad-feed presses in 1943? If the press was striking one bronze planchet and either 1 or 3 steel planchets on the same stroke, the steel planchets would determine when and where the die assembly came to a stop.

    TD >>



    I was going to point out the same thing about density.
    Choice Numismatics www.ChoiceCoin.com

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  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Almost relevant >>



    I have one of those. Worth $56? hmmm


    Leo >>




    Typical eBay idiots.
    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Never heard that from Cogan or Elder, and they knew their Cents.

    Owned 2 myself. Sold the PCGS AU58 to Scott Travers maybe a dozen years ago. It was well made; my VF and another likewise seemed "sloppy".

    Plenty of good numismatics being practiced here . . . image
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Strike is a factor of the planchet thickness and die spacing (during this era). It shouldn't matter if the planchet is steel or bronze.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Strike is also a factor of how readily the metal in the planchet deforms in response to pressure (how "soft" or "hard" the metal is).

    I think planchet thickness is about the same for bronze and steel cents. I have an uncirculated roll of steel cents in a plastic tube and it fills the tube to the same extent as the non-steel ones.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • TigersFan2TigersFan2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭


    << <i>Almost relevant >>



    Ok, I'll bite. What is this person selling? A rusted steel cent or an altered date?
    I love the 3 P's: PB&J, PBR and PCGS.
  • Strike has something to do with metal flow as well. Broadstruck coins almost always are well struck, and often have ridiculously strong strikes. Having no retaining collar allows the metal to flow outwards (hence the name "broadstrike"), but that would also provide less metal to fill the dies--at least in theory. But the fact that they are almost always very well struck (more so than their normally struck counterparts) shows that there is some physics principle at work in creating the good strike. Often times Jefferson nickels have full steps and mercury dimes have full split bands when they're broadstruck.
    www.sullivannumismatics.com Dealer in Mint Error Coins.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I assume that the hammer die is set to stop at some point beyond the point where it first makes contact with the planchet, but the "obstruction" caused by the freshly-struck coin restrained by two dies and a collar prevents it from finishing the stroke.

    Take away the collar, and the coin can pancake out and allow the hammer die to finish its stroke.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Mr. Eureka: In the old days, people used to say that any real 1943 Copper Cent would have to be well struck. In recent years, I've seen some in slabs that were not even close to well struck. What's up with that?



    At the moment, I recollect at least three of them as being exceptionally well struck. I have seen several. When the Kenneth Wing pedigree, NGC graded AU-53 1943-S copper sold privately at an ANA Convention in 2008, I covered this sale and analyzed the coin.



    I then said, When I viewed this Kenneth Wing 1943-S, I was puzzled by the level of design detail, especially for a coin that had several scratches and other marks, considerable rim wear, and noticeable friction from brief, though significant, circulation. In particular, I was startled by the boldness of the numerals and the relatively high relief of the ‘S’ mintmark

    I later noted that others who had researched these concluded that they were particularly well struck. Because most are circulated or have friction from handling, it is hard to tell exactly how much detail was present when they were struck. Because a majority are well struck, it does not necessarily follow that all must be very well struck to be genuine. There are several variables that can affect the striking detail of coins.



    1943-S copper and 1944-S steel errors, Part 1



    Sullivan: "The Simpson '43-D and '43-S look very well struck (particularly the '43-D.)"



    This is my recollection as well, tentatively. I have not seen these in a very long time. I am not sure I have any notes on those two pieces.



    Numismatists who are hoping to see a 1943 or 1943-S copper will have a chance soon. These have been consigned to the January 2016 FUN auction, along with 1944, 1944-D and 1944-S steels! I have seen most of them before and have already written about them:



    Why Are 1943 Copper and 1944 Steel Lincoln Cent Errors So Valuable?


    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The top link shows a 404 error -- maybe just my system?



    Thank you for the superb work on these. I am one of those collectors who value your opinion and analysis highly.



    Drunner
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Still looking for one... started on one jug of wheaties this weekend... a long process..

    Might finish by spring....image Cheers, RickO
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Drunner: The top link shows a 404 error -- maybe just my system?



    It was my fault. Some of the old CoinLink URLs have been phased out. Please try this:



    1943-S copper and 1944-S steel errors, Part 1



    Drunner: Thank you for the superb work on these. I am one of those collectors who value your opinion and analysis highly.



    I should be thanking you. Do you have suggestions for future topics? While I received much positive feedback regarding my articles about the Pogue Family Collection, I was sort of hoping there would be more interest in my articles about Gene Gardner's Collection. Should I have handled these differently?



    The Incredible Gene Gardner Coin Collection, Part 7 – The Final Auction



    Ricko: Still looking for one... started on one jug of wheaties this weekend... a long process ... Might finish by spring



    Although I write about million dollar coins, I continue to collect Wheat cents from change. I receive a few every month. Just two days ago, a Very Fine 1945 came in change at a grocery store. People can still have much fun collecting cents and nickels from change.



    While a 1943 copper is unlikely to surface, more 1944 steel cents may be found. When precious metals dealers, antiques dealers, junk dealers, pawn shop owners and other see a circulated steel cent, they each usually just assume that it is a 1943, without considering the possibility that it might date 1944! A couple years ago, one dealer showed me a large pale of steel cents that no one seems to want to buy from him. His employees probably just toss steel cents into the pale without really looking at them.
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,250 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's not about density. It's about formability.



    Examples:

    Gold and platinum are both dense - gold forms easily, platinum does not

    Titanium and aluminum are much less dense - aluminum forms easily, titanium does not

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  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    CameoNut: It's not about density. It's about formability. ... Examples: Gold and platinum are both dense - gold forms easily, platinum does not; Titanium and aluminum are much less dense - aluminum forms easily, titanium does not.



    Is CameoNut referring to malleability? Historically, gold has often been thought of as being very malleable, easy to forge and otherwise shape. It is also easily dented. Is a 95% copper alloy more malleable than the zinc coated steel that was employed to manufacture 1943 steel cents? If so, was more pressure needed for the same coining presses to produce 1943 steel cents, significantly more than the amount of pressure that was used to produce Lincoln cents in 1941 and 1942?



    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .

    i only skimmed the thread.



    are you inquiring about the P D S or all 3?

    .

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  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: LanceNewmanOCC
    .
    are you inquiring about the P D S or all 3?
    .


    I was thinking and asking about the 43-P, but information about the others might also be useful.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    I was thinking and asking about the 43-P, but information about the others might also be useful.



    To the point, I recollect that the 43-P and 43-S coppers that I have seen were especially well struck and seem to have been struck differently in a way that cannot be entirely explained. Though I did not spend much time viewing the unique 43-D, from a distance, it seemed to be well struck, too.



    In an article that I wrote in 2008, I discuss the details of the Kenneth Wing 1943-S copper, which I closely examined on the floor of the ANA Convention in Baltimore. As coins that "grade" as high as MS-62 may have noticeable friction, in accordance with prevailing standards, and none of the 43-P or 43-S coppers grade as high as 63, it is difficult to draw a conclusion regarding the topic raised in the OP.



    1943-S copper and 1944-S steel errors, Part 1



    Mr. Eureka: In the old days, people used to say that any real 1943 Copper Cent would have to be well struck. In recent years, I've seen some in slabs that were not even close to well struck. What's up with that?



    Specifically, to which copper pieces is Mr. Eureka referring? Some URLs or slab serials numbers may be helpful.




    1943-S copper and 1944-S steel errors, Part 1



    Mr. Eureka: In the old days, people used to say that any real 1943 Copper Cent would have to be well struck. In recent years, I've seen some in slabs that were not even close to well struck. What's up with that?



    Specifically, to which copper pieces is Mr. Eureka referring? Some URLs or slab serials numbers may be helpful.
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me

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