Paypal Local Pick Up Question Electronic Proof of Delivery SELLERS BEWARE...UPDATE IN FIRST POST

segoja · October 1, 2015 3:46AM

I thought I was pretty well versed in most E-Bay and Paypal topics, but this one I'm not 100% sure on. Calling Paypal is not a certainty, as you'll only get an opinion from someone that is not binding.

Here's the situation

Guy buys a PCGS MS70 1oz Gold Eagle off me on E-Bay. Pays for it with paypal and asks if he can pick it up at my office. No problem, as it saves me shipping. I obviously had him sign a pretty detailed receipt with the coins cert #, E-Bay auction # etc...BUT heres the rub, there is no electronic proof of delivery. He has given me + feedback, but that's not proof of delivery.

So my question is: Has anyone had a local pick up where the customer claimed he hasn't received the coin and more importantly what happened.

Thanks!

UPDATE APRIL 15, 2016

Paypal decided in the favor of the thief. Cost me about $6000. Reason I did not have electronic signature. Hard signature, drivers License #, video proof (which I had all of) does not matter.

Police Department decided in my favor. Arrest warrant issued, bond set at $100,000 (which is pretty high for a $6000 theft).

Police arrested the guy and he can't bond out. The theft happened in Idaho, he lives in Spokane, WA...about 25 miles away, and he was arrested in Spokane, WA. He is fighting extradition, which will take 2 months. Meanwhile, the 2 months he spends in Washington jail, DOES NOT count in Idaho. So the guy is stupid enough to steal, get caught, and now he'll spend an extra 2 months in jail...HA!

Now the last hole to close....getting my money back. Guess we'll have to wait for the Idaho court date for that to happen.

AUandAG · October 1, 2015 4:45AM

If that were to happen, I think just uploading your signed receipt to Paypal would protect you. You did
all the right things.

bob

Bochiman · October 1, 2015 4:45AM

Tough one.
I can see, on more expensive items, how using paypal (as the buyer) would be wanted/necessary (ie...use a CC using paypal when the seller may not be able to take CCs otherwise).
However, I think that if it were I in your situation, this is the point I would say I need it to be PPG (if funded with CC, then a choice between them paying the fees, me eating the fees, or splitting it with them). If they wanted to pay cash, then fine, but using PP, because of the path you are looking at with the potential problem, it would have to be a way that couldn't come back and bite me in the @$$

TigersFan2 · October 1, 2015 5:39AM

<< <i>If that were to happen, I think just uploading your signed receipt to Paypal would protect you. You did
all the right things.

bob

>>

But if he's being dishonest, all he's got to do is tell Ebay that's not his signature and the receipt is a phony. For the EBay perspective, it still comes back to your word vs. his. In that situation, Ebay will side with the buyer and tell the seller to take things up in court.

But, a dishonest buyer can simply say a mailed envelope with tracking and signature delivery confirmation had the wrong coin or was empty and make the same claim to Ebay to screw you.

Bottom line... You're never 100% protected from Ebay siding with a dishonest buyer.

LindeDad · October 1, 2015 5:47AM

If your selling local why do you need eBay & PayPal to be involved?
Why give them money out of your pocket?

Keep it to pay the janitor.

TopographicOceans · October 1, 2015 6:11AM

That's a sticky wicket.

eBay does require electronic proof of delivery so you should have really refunded his PP payment.
BUT eBay watches the money and that would count as a defect unless you cancel the transaction thru eBay at the customers request BUT if you do that then that is a policy violation for fee advoidance.

So it is risky, but if the guy were to file a claim, hopefully you have enough documentation so if you spent enough time on the phone with PP maybe they would take your side in the dispute?

eBay does require all listings to have an electronic form of payment.

I sold a shower door on eBay with local pickup and I had to call eBay.
They said I had to still list PP but they gave me specific verbage to put in the listing like "Contact seller for payment methods accepted at pick-up."

I'd recommend calling eBay and getting their direction for future listings.

TigersFan2 · October 1, 2015 6:14AM

<< <i>If your selling local why do you need eBay & PayPal to be involved?
Why give them money out of your pocket?

Keep it to pay the janitor.

>>

I would assume that Ebay is involved as the means of bringing buyer and seller together. And I would assume that PayPal is assumed because the buyer would rather pay electronically than carry cash to the pickup.

coindeuce · October 1, 2015 6:28AM

Require two forms of photo ID and a thumbprint from the buyer.

amwldcoin · October 1, 2015 7:38AM

Take his picture with him showing the coin he just picked up!

SamByrd · October 1, 2015 8:44AM

cash on pick up is best.

Local pick ups never use pay pal it is a risk.

You are not covered in the event of a INR claim. Ebay will not even look at other proof.

You are unlikely to have an issue but I for one wont allow any transaction for pick up that is paypal.

jdimmick · October 1, 2015 10:53AM

I make it where he had to pay in cash/check, so that if he filed a claim, you have the money ,would not be in paypal to take/freeze

TopographicOceans · October 1, 2015 11:47AM

For the future the best action would be

1) Issue a refund from PP (but don't cancel the transaction in eBay)
2) Have the customer pay when he picks it up (I would only accept cash)
3) Mark the transaction as paid in eBay

You'll probably get a defect from eBay when issuing the refund because they follow the money and it might require a phone call to explain to get it removed.

But this way you get: No PP fees, No Defect, No Postage Fees, No Policy Violation and No chance of a chargeback for an INR case.

segoja · October 1, 2015 11:54AM

Thanks for the heads up guys. Lots of things to think about.

The guy bought the item thru e-bay and paid for it. He then decided he wanted local pick up. Now we do direct sales without e-bay.

Bottom line, I run a business and take CC's thru paypal, so it's always a risk. I do have video tape with a pretty long holding period, so if he ever filed a claim with Paypal or E-Bay, I would have a pretty clear case with the local Police.

segoja · November 4, 2015 12:47PM

Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

TomB · November 4, 2015 1:13PM

Before I even read the last post I had a feeling how this would play out. Simply put, I would never do local pick up for coins using any combination of eBay PayPal or a credit card.

GRANDAM · November 4, 2015 2:01PM

This sux!!!!!

VanHalen · November 4, 2015 2:02PM

Holy Chit Batman. This really sucks and I am sorry to hear how it played out. Thank you for posting the thief's handle. You have done due diligence and will (should) win in court but the whole damn thing sucks.

BAJJERFAN · November 4, 2015 2:44PM

Originally posted by: segoja

Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

PP or his CC Company should know which IP the transaction was made from. Hard to say that you didn't authorize the payment when the evidence shows that you made it. Something to check anyways.

TopographicOceans · November 4, 2015 2:53PM

Hindsight is 20/20
Since he is local, file a claim in small claims court and seek punitive damages for fraud.

BAJJERFAN · November 5, 2015 9:19AM

Originally posted by: TopographicOceans

Hindsight is 20/20

Since he is local, file a claim in small claims court and seek punitive damages for fraud.

Waste of time as you still have to collect. Better to track where the payment came from. Will he claim that his wife, dog or 2 YO child inadvertently made the payment yet HE arranged to pick up the coin. If YOU didn't authorize the payment, why would YOU arrange to pick it up?

CoinZip · November 5, 2015 10:29AM

The only way to protect your self on a local pick up is by requiring them to pay using paypal gift.....

I've done this with my phone at a B & M.

BAJJERFAN · November 5, 2015 10:34AM

Originally posted by: CoinZip

The only way to protect your self on a local pick up is by requiring them to pay using paypal gift.....

I've done this with my phone at a B & M.

I don't think that you can pay for an eBay win with PPG.

BAJJERFAN · November 5, 2015 2:17PM

Originally posted by: ProfHaroldHill

Originally posted by: segoja

Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

I'd bet local LE will *not* ignore this one; you've got it all wrapped in a neat bundle for them.

I'd give him ONE last shot at backing out of his self-made nightmare, then go after him with the local PD/SO.

The situation you describe here is a 'cut and dried' criminal matter. (Though he may explain, as he pays you, that it was simply a 'mistake'.)

You might even send him a note about this thread, when offering him a chance to pay up or return the coin. He needs to understand what he's up against.

While you may still have to sue to get the $ back, if you do so in 'small claims' you can only get the actual damages back, and generally no lawyers are allowed in the process. You'd have to file in District/Superior Ct to get punitive damages, (at least in my home state of WA that's the policy.)

Disclaimer: This is my 1st post on the 'new' forum... so any anomalous stuff - weird emoticons, bad formatting, etc, etc, is NOT of my doing.

Reread the OP. He isn't out any money YET. The guy paid for a coin with PayPal and a CC AND then made arrangements to pick it up. Now he is saying he didn't authorize the charges. If he didn't then who did. Why would anyone arrange to pick up an item and then say they didn't authorize it? The logic doesn't add up.

grote15 · November 5, 2015 3:47PM

Scam from the get-go. Local pickup is fine ONLY if cash is the method of payment. I hope this dirtbag doesn't get away with this, but paypal is likely going to side with him, unfortunately, as paypal seller protection only applies if you follow paypal requirements for shipment.

grote15 · November 5, 2015 3:49PM

Originally posted by: BAJJERFAN

Originally posted by: ProfHaroldHill

Originally posted by: segoja

Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

I'd bet local LE will *not* ignore this one; you've got it all wrapped in a neat bundle for them.

I'd give him ONE last shot at backing out of his self-made nightmare, then go after him with the local PD/SO.

The situation you describe here is a 'cut and dried' criminal matter. (Though he may explain, as he pays you, that it was simply a 'mistake'.)

You might even send him a note about this thread, when offering him a chance to pay up or return the coin. He needs to understand what he's up against.

While you may still have to sue to get the $ back, if you do so in 'small claims' you can only get the actual damages back, and generally no lawyers are allowed in the process. You'd have to file in District/Superior Ct to get punitive damages, (at least in my home state of WA that's the policy.)

Disclaimer: This is my 1st post on the 'new' forum... so any anomalous stuff - weird emoticons, bad formatting, etc, etc, is NOT of my doing.

Reread the OP. He isn't out any money YET. The guy paid for a coin with PayPal and a CC AND then made arrangements to pick it up. Now he is saying he didn't authorize the charges. If he didn't then who did. Why would anyone arrange to pick up an item and then say they didn't authorize it? The logic doesn't add up.

The logic doesn't add up because he is a criminal and knows how to exploit the system.

BAJJERFAN · November 6, 2015 12:49AM

Originally posted by: grote15

Scam from the get-go. Local pickup is fine ONLY if cash is the method of payment. I hope this dirtbag doesn't get away with this, but paypal is likely going to side with him, unfortunately, as paypal seller protection only applies if you follow paypal requirements for shipment.

It isn't up to PP at this point. He is contesting the charges thru his CC company saying the charges weren't authorized by him. If there is a chargeback, the CC company will TAKE the money from PP. PP will fight the chargeback. If the CC company investigates properly, I don't see how they can rule in favor of the buyer. Also, I believe the buyer is expected to return the coin to the CC company who will forward it to the seller BEFORE any funds can be returned.

Sadly, the CC companies take the lazy easy way out and rule for the buyer.

ricko · November 6, 2015 1:09AM

Amazing... the thieves just keep coming.... unbelievable the methods they devise.

I once did a local pickup on something off ebay...but I paid in cash at the time and

there was no problem. Never thought of this angle. Cheers, RickO

grote15 · November 6, 2015 1:15AM

The difference here is that even if the CC files a chargeback with PP, the seller will recoup the funds paypal initially debits the account as long as seller follows requirements for paypal seller protection. If not, the funds will not be restored, unfortunately, and the seller will have to entertain othee avenues for restitution. It is always best to follow paypal requirements in order to protect yourself.

BAJJERFAN · November 6, 2015 1:20AM

Originally posted by: grote15

The difference here is that even if the CC files a chargeback with PP, the seller will recoup the funds paypal initially debits the account as long as seller follows requirements for paypal seller protection. If not, the funds will not be restored, unfortunately, and the seller will have to entertain othee avenues for restitution. It is always best to follow paypal requirements in order to protect yourself.

True and seller has no PP protection here. Personally, I would confront the seller.

guitarwes · November 6, 2015 1:29AM

So:

1) Buyer won the coin in the auction, checked out thru Ebay, then paid with Paypal.

2) Buyer wanted to do a local pickup for the coin.

3) Buyer comes into the shop, picks the coin up, signs for it and leaves evidence that he was there in person to get the coin.

4) Leaves and then files a non-authorized charge with his credit card company for that Ebay/Paypal transaction.

How in the world does he think he can get away with this scam? What an idiot.

joebb21 · November 6, 2015 3:45AM

Clearly he lives close by otherwise would not have done a local pick up.

I say you go with the police to visit his house

BlindedByEgo · November 6, 2015 5:27AM

You have his address, right?

davewesen · November 6, 2015 1:21PM

Originally posted by: segoja
Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

I would recommend that you give him a call and ask for your coin back, telling him you will file a police report if you do not get it. Contact info on eBay needs his current phone number, or you can get him NARU'd.

The problem with police report is it may be below their interest value wise. Not sure on IL requirements before considered a felony, and many times police will do little below that value.

PAYPAL kind of bad in that they automatically deduct from your account when they get a chargeback.

I am not sure what you could have done different - possibly cancel PAYPAL payment and require cash if they want to pick-up.

BAJJERFAN · November 6, 2015 1:40PM

Originally posted by: davewesen

Originally posted by: segoja

Update..

Sellers beware. Local Pick-Up IS NOT covered by seller protection, even though I have video evidence of pick-up (apparently due to privacy reasons paypal can't take video evidence), I have the guys driver license info (the address matches the paypal and e-bay mailing address) and I have his signature on the invoices, + he left me positive feedback. Police report to be filed once I return from Baltimore. We'll see what they do...my guess is nothing.

The buyer filed a complaint that the charges were unauthorized.

Buyers ID rustycole123....If PCGS needs to boot me from the forums for outing this thief then fine.

I would recommend that you give him a call and ask for your coin back, telling him you will file a police report if you do not get it. Contact info on eBay needs his current phone number, or you can get him NARU'd.

The problem with police report is it may be below their interest value wise. Not sure on IL requirements before considered a felony, and many times police will do little below that value.

PAYPAL kind of bad in that they automatically deduct from your account when they get a chargeback.

I am not sure what you could have done different - possibly cancel PAYPAL payment and require cash if they want to pick-up.

The OP is not in Illinois anymore; he is in Idaho.

segoja · April 15, 2016 3:59AM

Update in First Post.

Bochiman · April 15, 2016 4:11AM

Hate that Paypal didn't rule in your favor.

HAPPY that cops got the guy and he is in jail for it.

Stupid guy, I agree.

VanHalen · April 15, 2016 6:26AM

Thanks for the update and best of luck getting the $$ back.

TopographicOceans · April 15, 2016 6:30AM

I like thieves in jail

shorecoll · April 15, 2016 6:33AM

Any comment on what he did with it? Sell it for melt to buy drugs or...?

I know I might be warped, but spending a couple years in jail for $6k just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Now if you have a scam on the Milken or Madoff level, I might be willing.

coindeuce · April 15, 2016 6:35AM

Bravo James ! Nice to know that Idaho LE doesn't puddyfoot around with creeps like that. Get him back to Idaho and ram him good !

segoja · April 15, 2016 8:03AM

No idea what the guy did with the coins. I'm guessing when we go to court (He has already confessed to the detective working the case) I'll find out. Doesn't really matter as I'll want the funds from the guy. I'm told that's part of the sentencing.

TommyType · April 15, 2016 8:22AM

Originally posted by: segoja

No idea what the guy did with the coins. I'm guessing when we go to court (He has already confessed to the detective working the case) I'll find out. Doesn't really matter as I'll want the funds from the guy. I'm told that's part of the sentencing.

Although, certainly not your concern here....You have to wonder how many OTHER times he's done something similar? It doesn't seem to be something one does once on a whim. There was planning and calculation involved....

It might also be useful to feed-back to Pay-Pal how this all turned out so they at least understand that they are essentially HELPING thieves. You just get the feeling they don't care, though. They have their procedures, and no matter how ill conceived, they follow them....

mariner67 · April 15, 2016 8:41AM

Do you really think you have a chance of recovering your money?

bestday · April 15, 2016 8:42AM

Originally posted by: segoja
No idea what the guy did with the coins. I'm guessing when we go to court (He has already confessed to the detective working the case) I'll find out. Doesn't really matter as I'll want the funds from the guy. I'm told that's part of the sentencing.

Your office in Idaho ?? Did you move out of Illinois ?

airplanenut · April 15, 2016 9:12AM

At least there's currently a partially happy ending. Sucks you don't have the money yet, but I like the fact that he can't afford to get out of jail. I also hope he gets stuck with some lawyer fees to really make it not worth it.

Booger9989 · April 15, 2016 9:48AM

Originally posted by: airplanenut
At least there's currently a partially happy ending. Sucks you don't have the money yet, but I like the fact that he can't afford to get out of jail. I also hope he gets stuck with some lawyer fees to really make it not worth it.

as for lawyers fees....that will most likely be on the tax payers dime.... if his bail was 100k he most likely needed to post 10k. Either way I am glad to see this guy busted...finnaly a win for the good guys. Lets just hope the judge dont let him off with just probation! !!

coindeuce · April 15, 2016 11:23AM

Hire a competent PI, and find out quick if the scumbag has any assets. Get a civil judgement against him - You do realize that you can obtain a judgement for liens on any physical assets of his in place of cash settlement, right ? If he owns a car, any toys such as a boat, motorcycle, snowmobile etc. - whatever it takes to get cash equivalent for the coins. Do it now, while he is in jail , and his guard is down.

derryb · April 15, 2016 11:34AM

Paypal needs to remedy this loophole in their seller protection. Problem is that they want independent thirds party proof of delivery that they can view from the drone station.

Somebody smart will come up with a service to somehow accomplish this for the local pickup sales. Lots of cars sold on ebay, wonder how those are handled when it comes to a claim.

segoja · April 15, 2016 11:42AM

The part we do not know about this case is who's cc the guy used. If it was his, yes paypal helped the thief. Lets say he stole your cc and somehow got the address and name changed.....yes you can do that as names are not a critical denial component (I had a long drawn out conversation with paypal about that...the issue is William Smith, Will Smith....vould be the same guy then you have all kinds of issues. They literally don't look at that). You get the bill and claim it's not you. Then did paypal do right? Just saying it's not as cut and dry as we night think.

Had I sent the coins with sig confirmation and the card was stolen, then paypal would have eaten the loss.

Good thing cars have VIN #s and are easily tracked.

Paypal Local Pick Up Question Electronic Proof of Delivery SELLERS BEWARE...UPDATE IN FIRST POST

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