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Rampant Gradeflation in Franklins is why I stopped collecting the series

From time to time other forumites and myself have mentioned concerns about the gradeflation that has occurred over the last few years.

Invariably some agree and some say, "NO WAY! I submit coins all the time to PCGS and I can assure you they are just as tough/conservative as ever!" or

"I just got grades in and I can't believe how tight PCGS is right now!" and other such blah, blah, blah.

For this last group, the naysayers that think gradeflation is a myth, please consider the examples shown here. And be assured, these are just a few of many, many more. Hardly a day goes by that I don't see a Franklin that I or a fellow Franklin collector used to own in a new upgraded holder.

I'm not sure what to make of it. On one hand it is nice to see that many of the coins I used to own turned out to be REALLY nice coins. I always thought so. And I even had sent most of my nicer stuff for regrades one or more times with some success. Occasionally an MS65 would get bumped up to an MS66.

Nothing unusual there, grades are opinions after all, right? But in my mind anything more than a one gradepoint swing is troubling. I expect more consistency from world class graders. If TPG coins can go from MS64 to MS66+, or MS65 to MS67 with any degree of regularity, something is out of whack.

Regarding the considerable (to me, at least) sums of money I deprived myself of by selling these coins in "lower grade holders":

Inevitably, some are going to say, "Well, that is your own fault! You should have recognized that these were better coins than the original grades indicated and sent them in YOURSELF for the upgrades!"

To that I can only say- I DID! That is a major part of my frustration: all but one of these coins was sent to PCGS by myself for regrading several times only to be returned to me with the same grade.

Here's the first example:
image
image

That is a jump in value from $175 to $1900.


Next example:
image
image

Yeah, I know those two are only 1 and a half grade point bumps, but you have to agree about the math. A 10X jump in value is going to give me a queasy feeling, especially when I tried for an upgrade multiple times on each of these.

Here is a couple examples that are even more extreme:

This one started out as an MS65 (unfortunately I can't find a pic of it as a 65), I was of course very pleased to get it in this MS66 holder...
image

Now it is in the #1 Franklin Registry set as an MS67, and it has magically grown bell lines as well! Coinfacts pix:
image

Money I left on the table: $300 in MS66; $18,500 in MS67FBL

Next example is a little easier for me to stomach, as I actually got the upgrade myself:

image

Another one from CoinFacts as MS67FBL:

image

This last example is the most extreme, not only for the HUGE price jump, but also because the coin is now overgraded by a HUGE margin.

Before I show you the pix, a little background on the coin:

This coin was purchased in the late 1990's from Segoja. It was an MS64FBL PCGS. If IRC, I paid the extreme (for an MS64) sum of $500 for it because toned 1949-D Franks are downright rare.

James was adamant that the coin would eventually wind up in an MS65FBL holder, but I was just as sure it was maxed out at MS64FBL

You see, this coin, like so many 1949-Ds is covered with a myriad of marks, dings, and every manner of abrasion. If you examine this coin in hand with 5x or 7x magnification you will see it is really, really banged up!
But, we all know that attractive toning and eye appeal play a large part in numerical grade and sure enough it did upgrade to MS65FBL for me:

image

But by some incredible bit of luck, somebody got a huge gift from the PCGS graders; here it is as an MS66+ from CoinFacts:

image

All apologies to the owner of this coin in it's present iteration, but it is unarguably a $10,000 piece of plastic.

It is one of the most overgraded coins I have ever seen and I guarantee that 99% of you, if you have even the most rudimentary grading skill, were given the opportunity to examine this coin in-hand under good lighting, would agree.

Be careful out there. Things are not always what they seem.
«13

Comments

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great post and examples Georgiacop50. You're saying the same stuff I've gone through with gem seated coins over the past 20 years. Coins I couldn't even cross are now 1-1/2 points higher. One by one, coins I attempted upgrades numerous times in years past and gave up on, are now making the grade. I don't think people realize that grading is much more than just the coin's actual merits. Major roles are played by "when" the coin is graded, "who" the set of graders are, "how" the coin was "set up" in the submission, and "who" submitted it do play a role. Though I realize >90% of the people here won't ever believe that. For those that have resubmitted heavily in their primary series, they know what the score is. I feel for you on some of those massive upgrades.

    Of all the areas I've followed, the minimum amount of gradeflation occurred in PCGS MS65 seated dollars. They really held the line there over the past 25 years. The most sloppy stuff I've seen is in MS64 to MS66 $20's. Fwiw the few times I've submitted post 1933 gem coins (Washingtons, Walkers, Franklins, Mercs, etc.) I've invariably gotten 1 grade lower than the "no brainer" grade I anticipated. So I stick to gem 19th century silver type where I typically only need 1 to 2 submissions to get the grade I feel the coin deserves. Books could be written on the nuances in "getting grades" and no one would believe it. It should be stated that those Franklin upgrades could have taken a dozen times each before someone finally landed the big one. But, that's all any buyers see in the end....the last grade achieved, no matter how many attempts it took to "earn" it.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes Roadrunner, I have seen your similar tales and always had real sympathy.
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent synposis of gradeflation. It is very problematic for our hobby and especially the registry set collectors and those who prefer MS coins.

    When I first started collecting, I realized that the variances of grading were a big issue and that I just couldn't collect MS pieces knowing that such swings take place in the stated grade. Because of that, I decided instead to focus on AU and lower graded coins (circulated coins). The price differences between grades are much lower (if overgraded) and I could grade the coins myself more accurately.

    My biggest kick in the shorts was finding a super nice w/slide marks obverse 1893-S Barber Half. Great luster, strike, the works, just some slide marks on the cheek. Sent it in for grading twice, only to later find it a year later on a prominent dealers site in an MS64 holder and asking multiples of what I sold it for raw.

    PCGS giveth and PCGS taketh. Luckily for me, the taketh as been less than the giveth. image

    Tyler
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not looking for sympathy....but like you, want to inform others that the assigned grade is not necessarily independent of how it got there. The "investor" coin market sort of needs price and gradeflation to survive. What was a worthy coin just 20, 10 or 5 yrs ago may not be worthy any more with many more being graded. The top pops generally keep shifting up the scale....and formerly "worthy" coins fall off the list. And that gives the players something to arbitrage. It's too bad that every grade a coin was ever assigned at the grading service wasn't somehow recorded in the holder. People would realize that maybe it's the average grade that should determine a coin's value and not just the highest one achieved. My infamous story of the choice/gem $10 Lib that I cracked out of a 64 holder that went BB, BB, 66. I still don't know what the real grade on that coin was. I don't think it was any of ones it had achieved. I've had enough gem seated coins move 2 MS grading points to know it's not all about the coin. 64 to 66.... or.... 65 to 67 shouldn't really happen.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I passed on a half dime a few months ago. It was in a PCGS 63 holder. I thought it deserved 61 at best. A month or so later, there it was in an NGC 64 holder. More money being asked, of course. Still a pass.

    When I first started into half dimes, I found a nice PCGS 63 half dime. As my collecting tastes and grading ability matured, I reexamined this particular coin against similar coins (from AU58 to MS64) and figured this coin was very lacking in luster, oddly toned, likely a technical 58, and had a few too many marks in prime focal areas. So I sold it. Maybe a year later, I saw it again. You guessed it, it was in a PCGS 64 holder.

    I mention these two coins specifically (there are many more stories with different details) because both coins "inflated" through the same dealer. There's a lot of reward if someone is willing to take the risk.

    Someone will get stuck with the "hot potato"
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Great post and examples Georgiacop50 though I don't know how long before this thread is poofed. You're saying the same stuff I've gone through with gem seated coins over the past 20 years. Coins I couldn't even cross are now 1-1/2 points higher. One by one, coins I attempted upgrades numerous times in years past and gave up on, are now making the grade. I don't think people realize that grading is much more than just the coin's actual merits. Major roles are played by "when" the coin is graded, "who" the set of graders are, "how" the coin was "set up" in the submission, and "who" submitted it do play a role. Though I realize >90% of the people here won't ever believe that. For those that have resubmitted heavily in their primary series, they know what the score is. I feel for you on some of those massive upgrades.

    Of all the areas I've followed, the minimum amount of gradeflation occurred in PCGS MS65 seated dollars. They really held the line there over the past 25 years. The most sloppy stuff I've seen is in MS64 to MS66 $20's. Fwiw the few times I've submitted post 1933 gem coins (Washingtons, Walkers, Franklins, Mercs, etc.) I've invariably gotten 1 grade lower than the "no brainer" grade I anticipated. So I stick to gem 19th century silver type where I typically only need 1 to 2 submissions to get the grade I feel the coin deserves. Books could be written on the nuances in "getting grades" and no one would believe it. It should be stated that those Franklin upgrades could have taken a dozen times each before someone finally landed the big one. But, that's all any buyers see in the end....the last grade achieved, no matter how many attempts it took to "earn" it. >>


    Careful with what you are saying, it might not be long before you get poofed too image

    I think the percentage of non-believers is >>90%.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is not pointed at anyone in particular. Most times when I see these kind of threads the people say they're upset over gradeflation. But, they seem to try and play the game trying to get upgrades. They seem to be more upset they didn't win and someone else did. Perhaps the timing, who submitted etc. Bottom line seems like a whine the "system" didn't work for them at that given time. image I personally don't play the game because yes, I'd be whining too!image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    Of all the areas I've followed, the minimum amount of gradeflation occurred in PCGS MS65 seated dollars. They really held the line there over the past 25 years >>



    There's been a few to get through but for the most part you are correct. I do see quite a few of the lower grades jumping up a point so perhaps it's just a matter of time...
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 20,454 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is not pointed at anyone in particular. Most times when I see these kind of threads the people say they're upset over gradeflation. But, they seem to try and play the game trying to get upgrades. They seem to be more upset they didn't win and someone else did. Perhaps the timing, who submitted etc. Bottom line seems like a whine the "system" didn't work for them at that given time. image I personally don't play the game because yes, I'd be whining too!image >>



    of the hundreds (thousands?) of coins I have owned, I can count on one hand the number I have sent in for the grade to be reassessed. 3/5

    And I'm down to fewer than two hundred now. That's a good place to be.
  • JBNJBN Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Walking Liberty Halves have also been savaged by gradeflation.

    For years, the 33-S in 67 held at 7 specimens. Now 11.

    The 36-S in 67 has increased from 6 to 11 specimens. The market does provide the antidote to gradeflation - Look up the last 36-S to sell at Heritage and you will see that the market does properly discount overgraded coins.

    The key 41-S in 67 has grown from its many-years-stagnant value of 6 specimens to 9 now.

    The 42-S for many years only had the single LuLu specimen in 67. Now it is 5 in 67, with the LuLu specimen at 67+. At least in this case of gradeflation, the overall order of the WLH universe has been maintained.

    Probably the most amazing is the 45-S in 67. It was at two specimens for many years. You would not be able to guess the latest population. (hint: over 25!).

    This isn’t limited to the late date set range that I focus on. If you look at the populations for the 1916 P and the 1920 P, you’ll also see this explosion in the population numbers in the top grades.

    AllCoinsRule has an excellent point. When these set registry owners with recently graded top pop coins go to the marketplace, they are in for a big surprise.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This is not pointed at anyone in particular. Most times when I see these kind of threads the people say they're upset over gradeflation. But, they seem to try and play the game trying to get upgrades. They seem to be more upset they didn't win and someone else did. Perhaps the timing, who submitted etc. Bottom line seems like a whine the "system" didn't work for them at that given time. image I personally don't play the game because yes, I'd be whining too!image >>



    of the hundreds (thousands?) of coins I have owned, I can count on one hand the number I have sent in for the grade to be reassessed. 3/5

    And I'm down to fewer than two hundred now. That's a good place to be. >>



    Don't take it so personal . Actually I wasn't even referring to you. image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just saw one of my PCGS OGH Buffalo's(38-d) in an upcoming auction. It was in an old PCGS 66 holder, with wonderful color. But had two carbon spots. one at 3:00 at rim, one on neck. (you can still make out where they once were) It looks to have had the spots removed, and now resides in a 68 holder. Boy somebody is sure going to make a pile on it.
  • JJSingletonJJSingleton Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent post. This empirical evidence is enlightening.

    Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia

    Findley Ridge Collection
    About Findley Ridge

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I enjoy these threads, though I hold my tongue about my personal beliefs. It wouldn't surprise me if PCGS felt this topic is inappropriate for their forum.

    It's a worthy discussion but maybe it belongs on an independent forum. Or maybe I'm wrong and PCGS will tolerate it.
    Lance.
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I recall reading here that some coins have been resubmitted dozens of times in order to get the big payoff.

    It sounds like you know your Franklins well, and it wouldn't surprise me if the same thing happens in all series.
    LCoopie = Les
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if you cracked these out first or submitted in plastic.

    It's not supposed to affect the results but who knows.
    LCoopie = Les
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Although I can't point to coins that suddenly "got better over time," but I can say that I have seen some of the same type of "gradeflation" with the scarcer gold coins that I collect. In my case I have seen the degradation of the AU grades. Nowadays it seems like most any AU-50 you see used to be an EF. Time was I could buy AU graded coins that I really liked. Now a lot of the AU-50 graded coins are disappointing, and coins I used find in AU-55 and 58 holders are called Mint State. Some of the auction results reflect this with "bargain prices" for "Mint State" while in other cases the bidders either don't know how to grade or take the grade on the slab as accurate.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BGBG Posts: 1,762 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I used to play the game, I've been out for five years now.

    One of the favorite people in my series stated:

    12/15/04

    I agree that eye appeal is the prime culprit for grade inflation>>>>

    i have been doing this since 1973 and have recognized grade-flation in the late 80s ( since slabing began in 1986 ) and dubbed it as such in the early 90s ....it is imho that the services are merely ranking coins and in theory will eventually ( after they make 100 million ) anoint the best of the best...aka the monster ( of the date ) and a few of ( or more depending on the " look ").... what i call the under-monsters....and those coins will always be sought after....ALWAYS

    as far as the rest of the population ..i break them down into 2 catagories.....good or higher eye apeal....or just coins...in which those 2 catagories will be subject to the laws of supply and demand...with both being a fixed supply obviuosly the most eye apealing coins will be sought after first right on down to the ugliest....and will be priced acordingly....but as i said it is all demand driven as the supply is fixed thus all coins will be ranked ( acording to the "look" )....and if you own the look you will ring the bell..if you dont you may have to wait a while

    monsterman

    ps...the hardest thing for all newbies to understand is grade-flation...they look at...for example diamonds and say it a f-vvs-2....period...and will always be just that...and cant possibly be a e-vs-1 someday....and they are right...but diamonds do not have a fixed supply...there are tons of them and tons more to be found and there is no upgrading diamonds as the grade is the grade...but coins on the other hand have a fixed supply....and thus my "ranking them " theory......

    their mistake is they are trying to equate apples and oranges and do not understand the " landscape " of ( aka the nature of the beast ) the territory


    -------------------------
    my goal is to find the monsters and i go where they are but i sometimes miss some.... so if you have any and want to sell IM THE BUYER FOR THEM!!!

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One of the factors is toning. (Both for the Franklins, and for roadrunner's Liberty Seated).
    Grading of toners has always been more subjective than the mark/luster based grading,
    and it could be different by decade.
    [Edit:] I believe BG makes the same point, as eye appeal, in the post just above.

    Another factor is market grading for the high rarities.

    It's not easy to be a grading company, either, subject to these forces.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Although I can't point to coins that suddenly "got better over time," but I can say that I have seen some of the same type of "gradeflation" with the scarcer gold coins that I collect. In my case I have seen the degradation of the AU grades. Nowadays it seems like most any AU-50 you see used to be an EF. Time was I could buy AU graded coins that I really liked. Now a lot of the AU-50 graded coins are disappointing, and coins I used find in AU-55 and 58 holders are called Mint State. Some of the auction results reflect this with "bargain prices" for "Mint State" while in other cases the bidders either don't know how to grade or take the grade on the slab as accurate. >>



    I would add that gradeflation has occurred with the southern branch mints but more so due to the fact that the crudeness of the issue often resulted in it being under graded and now, with exposure, they are graded accordingly.
  • silverpopsilverpop Posts: 6,591 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,692 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>sour grapes >>



    No

    Good eye
    LCoopie = Les
  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No doubt that there are changes in grading standards that result in coins slabbed years ago getting a second look and the benefit of the doubt now. Similarly, there are those among us sharp enough to play the crack-out game with some success as well. What isn't being considered is that many old time collections are coming available (often raw) and are finding their way into high grade holders too. When a population of MS 67 coins goes from 6 to 12 some of those newly graded coins probably never saw the inside of a grading room until recently.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • TiborTibor Posts: 3,199 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Regardless of TPG, another area of topic interest would be FSB on
    Mercury dimes. I remember when they had to look like Mikie D's
    Golden Arches, well rounded with separation. A good portion these
    days look like highly abused railroad ties side by side. It's a shame that
    many of the popular series don't have a highly specialized club as
    early coppers have with EAC. While I don't collect early coppers,
    the EAC grading is spot on when used or referred to.
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    georgiacop50, Great thread image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    This type of thing happens in all collectibles, I do not track my past cause I just don't want to know what I have given up.

    What would happen if they were sent in for grade review? Probably nothing cause the refund would be to big.

    I rarely buy a ms65 or higher anymore.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Money I left on the table: $300 in MS66; $18,500 in MS67FBL"

    Maybe, maybe not. What if your MS66 coin was professionally conserved to achieve the MS67 grade? Obviously, you did not lose a ton of money selling a coin in MS66 that was really only an MS66FBL. The big money was "lost" with the coin moving up a full point from MS66 to MS67. But, what if the coin was "helped along" to achieve that extra point? You might have resubmitted it 20x for upgrade and not even achieved a 1/2 point upgrade. Yet, the professional conservationist might have done a simple act to get the coin to be a candidate for a full point upgrade. On top of that, THEN knowing where and when to submit the coin might have "done the trick". In conclusion, I am not positive you left a great deal of "money on the table" at all.

    What I am fairly certain about is one thing ... if one is really against "paying up" for top pops these days (especially marginal quality ones), one might be far better off trying to produce coins like the 1951-P in MS67FBL (and I am not suggesting the coin is marginal for the grade) to sell off to the collectors that want to battle for the top spot(s) than trying to build a collection of them. In other words, befriend the gradeflation and do what you can to have it work in your favor.

    As always, just my two cents.


    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • deltadimemandeltadimeman Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭
    Georgiacop50,

    I owned the 49d after you , it does have some bag marks but is still an amazing coin to look at. It is a ms65fbl coin to me , but now is in an 66+ fbl holder ? I purchased the coin for $2950 and sold it for $3700 along with the rest of my registry set Franklins . I have also noticed that several of my Franklins are now being sold at auction for one grade or higher then when they were in my set. I did submit most of my Franklins for regrade and did get a few to upgrade or + . I submitted the 49d twice and did get a + upgrade to ms65+.

    I don't know about gradeflation, but I do know this : it depends on who submits the coin for regrade ! There are some people who are in the loop and can get just about any grade the want at TPG' s, there is just not enough nice coins and the only way they can make a profit is to get these upgrades . Oh my ! what a profit they make doing this !!
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>... one might be far better off trying to produce coins like the 1951-P in MS67FBL (and I am not suggesting the coin is marginal for the grade) to sell off to the collectors that want to battle for the top spot(s) than trying to build a collection of them. >>



    Well said WC, that is pretty much the gist of this post. I never said I was going to give up buying/selling/trying to upgrade.

    I'm just saying I don't want to collect them when the grades are so often fickle.
  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,897 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I notice this phenomenon in every series across the board. That is why I am glad that I started when I did---Heck, I likely should have started even sooner but still very glad I am not 'just starting out' today, as it would be nearly impossible to build the kind of set that I want. Nowadays, I always just buy the good stuff, when I see it, and I hope for the best, b/c it certainly may not be obtainable tomorrow.

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Spot on observation. And for a pure collector, a very frustrating situation as you have brought out.

    A few months ago Wondercoin made a post and wondered why prices for high grade coins in more modern series were softening. (sorry, don't know how to link it.) Here was my response then:


    Perhaps gradeflation has something to do with it.

    This past year I closely followed the Franklin market after not seriously doing so for several years. Recently the population of top pop coins graded 67 has expanded moreso than lower graded coins. This appeared to be an opportunity to upgrade as years ago Franklins in 67 were quite rare. Having gone to the last few major coin shows and auctions and spending time viewing Franklins, one thing is very clear to me, gradeflation has recently occurred.

    At the recent shows and auctions I viewed many Franklins graded 67 and years ago none of them (o.k. maybe one) would have made the grade. Maybe there are other folks like me who have been serious collectors in these series for some time but are not upgrading through the current supply. So gradeflation would support your observation that there is likely not much in the way of dupe acquisitions occurring from collectors who have already assembled high end sets.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Enlightening/Disturbing but...have heard some of these types of stories.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • sparky64sparky64 Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very informative thread with examples to boot.

    Frustrating would be what I would say too.

    I can be the "looking back/what-if" type at times and if this situation happened to me it would have the potential to eat me alive.

    "If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"

    My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress

  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    Professionally, this situation has made me a lot of money over the years. Personally, it has taken a lot of joy out of the hobby.
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think mitch's statement is dead on. I am pretty good at grading, but I cant fix em or have the skills to get the upgrade like the pros can.

    I could have sent it in 10x and never got the upgrade, it takes somebody with the knowledge and skill to get it to go most of the time, especially when something has to be done to help it a long.


  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    this type of stuff destroys the pop integrity of the lower grade
    while those 67's have bumped up...those 66 grades become destroyed in it's process
    sad stuff

    <<< is happy i'm a small fry at times in all things coins
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A very interesting thread to read. Much to think about.
  • TonerGuyTonerGuy Posts: 590 ✭✭✭
    Coin collecting - the hobby of Kings. And if you have the money and pull of a King your coins too can get magical upgrades at PCGS. This is nothing new and it occurs across all series with PCGS. Its disgusting but hey for some this is an industry not a hobby and an industry has to make money.
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,112 ✭✭✭✭
    With all the reports of gradeflation, I don't think it's hit the Ike series. Very few top end coins being made. There are a few exceptions (Some of the early "P" mints in 66 have exploding pops) but the real keys have only had limited increase in pops. This comment applies to Mint State Ikes, not Proofs.
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,112 ✭✭✭✭
    Not sure the examples that Georgiacop showed have been conserved or monkeyed with in any way. His point is valid, with hard proof.....gradeflation, not conservation or doctoring (which are two different things)
    JMSCoins Website Link


    Ike Specialist

    Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986

    image
  • Very interesting thread and subject. I feel for the OP.

    My take is that since we all know that grading opinions can differ, and change as well, it's not the graders that are out of whack, it's the price structure that has evolved in the market that causes a jump of many multiples as a result of one point. I think that's foolish.
  • WalkerfanWalkerfan Posts: 8,897 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Not sure the examples that Georgiacop showed have been conserved or monkeyed with in any way. His point is valid, with hard proof.....gradeflation, not conservation or doctoring (which are two different things) >>



    image

    “I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~

    My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)

    https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,648 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ronyshski. My thread was on the lincoln cent series (1953-P for example) and the skyrocketing pops of top pops. I could probably write a book just on what has happened to Mint State Jefferson nickels since the time I privately placed the World Class collection of Justhavingfun a few years ago. Very similar to Franklin Half Dollars. When I sold that Jefferson set for example, JHF had virtually every MS68FS in existence since those coins started getting graded back in the 1980s, they were lovely overall and they were worth a lot more than what I just saw a coin sell for at auction (with a now higher pop). I have also seen on Coinfacts many JHF coins (1938-1964) that have upgraded since the time of the sale of the set and they were all, overall, very deserving upgrades.

    As always, just my two cents.

    Wondercoin

    Edited to add ... It has absolutely affected the Ike series except there were plenty of very low end Ikes already in the marketplace so the impact does not appear as severe as it might otherwise.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • lavalava Posts: 3,286 ✭✭✭
    To the OP:

    Great thread, and excellent job of detailing the history of your coins and the grade changes.

    Excellent eye in picking the coins. You focused on the coin and not the holder.

    Excellent eye in seeing they were upgrade candidates. You resubmitted several times, so good for you.

    Although you seem to blame PCGS for not upgrading, you must bear some of the blame for selling the holder and not the coin. If you truly felt the coins were of a higher grade, you would have held out for your price, regardless of the slab.

    There is a lesson in here for all of us.
    I brake for ear bars.
  • deltadimemandeltadimeman Posts: 1,036 ✭✭✭
    come on guys, it's just a profit game. only a few get the upgrades and the big profits !
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What if your MS66 coin was professionally conserved to achieve the MS67 grade?

    Wondercoin >>



    That's pretty far-fetched WC!

    Surely you don't really believe that!

    Anybody can see otherwise... there is no "invisible conservation". Conservation almost always drastically changes the way a coin looks.

    Lets stick to the facts. not some fantastical "what if".
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
    double post
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Ronyshski. My thread was on the lincoln cent series (1953-P for example) and the skyrocketing pops of top pops. I could probably write a book just on what has happened to Mint State Jefferson nickels since the time I privately placed the World Class collection of Justhavingfun a few years ago. Very similar to Franklin Half Dollars. When I sold that Jefferson set for example, JHF had virtually every MS68FS in existence since those coins started getting graded back in the 1980s, they were lovely overall and they were worth a lot more than what I just saw a coin sell for at auction (with a now higher pop). I have also seen on Coinfacts many JHF coins (1938-1964) that have upgraded since the time of the sale of the set and they were all, overall, very deserving upgrades.

    As always, just my two cents.

    Wondercoin

    Edited to add ... It has absolutely affected the Ike series except there were plenty of very low end Ikes already in the marketplace so the impact does not appear as severe as it might otherwise. >>



    What about the Wash Quarters? Just curious, has gradeflation recently hit them?
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.

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