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1858/7 Flying Eagle cent Snow-1 Strong and weak now being graded by PCGS

EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
PCGS will now be listing the 1858/7 early die state as "Strong" under the coin number 2022.

A new number has been created for the late die state pieces as "Weak" under the coin number 532214.



Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They are not referring to the S-7 as "weak" are they?
    Doug
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    Well I can imagine there is little incentive to reholder weak examples
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm concerned that is going to confuse people.
    Doug
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    EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They are not referring to the S-7 as "weak" are they?


    No, the 1858/7 S7 is a separate variety. This is to distinguish between early and late die state pieces on the 1858/7 S1.


    Well I can imagine there is little incentive to reholder weak examples

    The won't be Photo Sealed, that's for sure.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can understand them deciding to recognize it, but do we really need to collect both the strong and weak and the S7 for the complete variety set? That's just not right. Die states? What about all the other true varieties that have Snow numbers.

    http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/composite.aspx?c=2163
    Doug
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    MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 7,995 ✭✭✭


    << <i>but do we really need to collect both the strong and weak and the S7 for the complete variety set? >>



    Good point.
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is there any other variety set that includes die stages? From what I understand in this thread, "weak" doesn't denote a different die, or die combination but the same S1, just a later die state.

    I don't see any problem stating it on the slab, but why add it to the complete variety set? I would certainly rather see other Snow varieties in that set before simple a later die state of the same variety.

    Doug
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    BroweBrowe Posts: 236 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there any other variety set that includes die stages? >>



    I think for the minor varieties in the wheat cent series the 1922 weak D and 1922 No D Weak Reverse come from the same die pair but from different stages. At least that is what is how it has been explained to me. Though I think in both states there is some degree of a "D" visible, I forget what the tolerance is in order for the coin to be classified as No D weak reverse.
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, 1922 "No D" varieties are different die pairings.

    An excellent explanation can be found here: Lincoln Cent Resource
    Doug
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    BroweBrowe Posts: 236 ✭✭✭
    Die 1, 3, and 4 can be classified as either No D Weak Reverse or Weak D depending on how much of the remaining D is visible.

    Edit to add that both the No D Weak Reverse and Weak D are required for the complete variety set.
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    EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can understand them deciding to recognize it, but do we really need to collect both the strong and weak and the S7 for the complete variety set? That's just not right. Die states? What about all the other true varieties that have Snow numbers.

    The registry shows 1858/7 S1 Strong and 1858/7 S7. These are two totally separate varieties, not die states of the same thing. The 1858/7 S1 weak is blanked out. If this changes, then yes, it should not stand.

    link
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Is there any other variety set that includes die stages? >>

    Bust halves have the bearded goddess, broken and patched 3, single leaf.
    Lance.
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    LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭
    Congratulations, Rick on getting another slot in the registry! Very cool. Can't wait to get my copy of the new book image
    ANA LM • WBCC 429

    Amat Colligendo Focum

    Top 10FOR SALE

    image
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    DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The 1982 no P Roosevelt Dime has a strong and weak variety, and they are both in the variety set.

    The more varieties the better.image
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I can understand them deciding to recognize it, but do we really need to collect both the strong and weak and the S7 for the complete variety set? That's just not right. Die states? What about all the other true varieties that have Snow numbers.

    The registry shows 1858/7 S1 Strong and 1858/7 S7. These are two totally separate varieties, not die states of the same thing. The 1858/7 S1 weak is blanked out. If this changes, then yes, it should not stand.

    link >>





    Rick,

    Your link to the set shows a divisor of 54 which includes 3 points for the blanked out weak variety, so it appears that the coin will be required to complete the set.

    Doug
    Doug
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the best way to protest this?

    We have two coins that are the same die, but one is a later state than the other. I don't see why we would have to have both, especially if we have a "strong."

    Why would this get pushed along when there are so many other compelling additions?

    Thanks,
    Doug
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    cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If we can have something as ridiculous as A and B orientation for presidential dollar edge lettering, we can have this. The later die states should be separated out, and they shouldn't be as valuable, IMO. I've seen a lot of certified 8/7's where there is no trace of the 7 visible, with only the broken wing tip and the field dot being present.
    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
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    EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If they keep it in, they need to give it a basal value. 1.00, just the same as a 1858 LL.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent article this quarter in Longacre's Ledger, Rick. Thank you for that.

    I see that PCGS does not include both examples in the Major Varieties set. However, it still has it in the Complete Variety set.

    Regardless, I don't know why they show this as a different variety when it is in fact the same variety, just polished down. Maybe if it used a different reverse, I could possibly see that since it would be different die marriage but that doesn't seem to be the case.

    Many things in coin grading are subjective. What caused a die variety can also be speculative. However, a variety and/or die pairing are facts. It is either different variety, or it is a duplicate.
    Doug
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is total BS. why would I buy a "weak" variety when I have the exact same die combination in "strong?"



    This really needs to be changed.
    Doug

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