The real gifts in the 1996 mint sets.
cladking
Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
Phillip Diehl (then acting director of the mint) had West Point minted dimes with the "W" mint mark
included in 1996 mint sets as atribute to the 50th anniversary of the Roosevelt dime and as a "thank you"
tpo long time mint set buyers. God knows mint set buyers didn't have a lot to cheer about in those days
since most of these sets were down under issue prices. Modern coins had already begun to lift the entire
coin market out of the depression of 1995 but this dime was a shot in the arm for many modern collectors.
This was before anyone had thought of the states quarters program. We might owe the existence of this
dime, and Diehl, more than we know.
Over the years, though, I've been coming to believe that the W dime pales in significance to some of the
other coins in this set. Don't be fooled by the Greysheet prices on these BU rolls because the price is low
primarily because this date gets busted up for the dime making the rolls more readily available. Like most
moderns the coins are much more "common" in the mint sets than in rollsand most rolls are from the sets.
What makes these coins so interesting is the astounding quality. The W dime is the best quality but all of
the other coins also are good quality and spectacular Gems are more readily available. Most sets will have
at least one choice or superb Gem. The clad quality is quite high and far surpasses the quality of the rolls
available in my limited experience.
Of course this quality tends to just move the bar higher but it also allows collectors with less knowledge and
money to acquire high quality coins on the cheap.
I just found another "gift" that I'd not noticed before. It's a Denver cent with a distinctly different reverse!
It might just be from a die which wasn't hubbed twice but it is much different. The most dramatic difference
is the relief, position, and shape of the lettering at the top of the reverse. It is much finer on this variety. In-
terestingly it will prove more elusive and more important than the '70-S sm dt since its incidence is similar
with a much smaller mintage. This especially applies if none were issued for circulation.
Most examples I've seen so far are highly PL.
I finally have a camera and can upload pictures. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get a picture of a
coin and get it posted here. Mebbe, before this thread falls into the archives...
included in 1996 mint sets as atribute to the 50th anniversary of the Roosevelt dime and as a "thank you"
tpo long time mint set buyers. God knows mint set buyers didn't have a lot to cheer about in those days
since most of these sets were down under issue prices. Modern coins had already begun to lift the entire
coin market out of the depression of 1995 but this dime was a shot in the arm for many modern collectors.
This was before anyone had thought of the states quarters program. We might owe the existence of this
dime, and Diehl, more than we know.
Over the years, though, I've been coming to believe that the W dime pales in significance to some of the
other coins in this set. Don't be fooled by the Greysheet prices on these BU rolls because the price is low
primarily because this date gets busted up for the dime making the rolls more readily available. Like most
moderns the coins are much more "common" in the mint sets than in rollsand most rolls are from the sets.
What makes these coins so interesting is the astounding quality. The W dime is the best quality but all of
the other coins also are good quality and spectacular Gems are more readily available. Most sets will have
at least one choice or superb Gem. The clad quality is quite high and far surpasses the quality of the rolls
available in my limited experience.
Of course this quality tends to just move the bar higher but it also allows collectors with less knowledge and
money to acquire high quality coins on the cheap.
I just found another "gift" that I'd not noticed before. It's a Denver cent with a distinctly different reverse!
It might just be from a die which wasn't hubbed twice but it is much different. The most dramatic difference
is the relief, position, and shape of the lettering at the top of the reverse. It is much finer on this variety. In-
terestingly it will prove more elusive and more important than the '70-S sm dt since its incidence is similar
with a much smaller mintage. This especially applies if none were issued for circulation.
Most examples I've seen so far are highly PL.
I finally have a camera and can upload pictures. Now all I have to do is figure out how to get a picture of a
coin and get it posted here. Mebbe, before this thread falls into the archives...
Tempus fugit.
0
Comments
send the images to oldcollectorcoins@gmail.com NOW
i wanna see this sucker!
.
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Sneed
<< <i>Even though I don't do clad or moderns or really even bullion I made a PCGS double holder with the special 96w dime in 67 and a 96w $5 AGE (1/10th) in PF69.(they are about the same size) Cool little set with special coins
>>
The W dime is a really neat coin and highlights the remarkable quality for which the West Point
Mint has become known. It's also a reminder that many of the circulating coins from the '70's
and '80's were actually made at West Point without a mint mark.
They deserve the attention they got from this coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>Even though I don't do clad or moderns or really even bullion I made a PCGS double holder with the special 96w dime in 67 and a 96w $5 AGE (1/10th) in PF69.(they are about the same size) Cool little set with special coins
>>
The W dime is a really neat coin and highlights the remarkable quality for which the West Point
Mint has become known. It's also a reminder that many of the circulating coins from the '70's
and '80's were actually made at West Point without a mint mark.
They deserve the attention they got from this coin. >>
I know the made unmarked pennies but what else did the make?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Even though I don't do clad or moderns or really even bullion I made a PCGS double holder with the special 96w dime in 67 and a 96w $5 AGE (1/10th) in PF69.(they are about the same size) Cool little set with special coins
>>
The W dime is a really neat coin and highlights the remarkable quality for which the West Point
Mint has become known. It's also a reminder that many of the circulating coins from the '70's
and '80's were actually made at West Point without a mint mark.
They deserve the attention they got from this coin. >>
I know the made unmarked pennies but what else did the make? >>
Quarters.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Even though I don't do clad or moderns or really even bullion I made a PCGS double holder with the special 96w dime in 67 and a 96w $5 AGE (1/10th) in PF69.(they are about the same size) Cool little set with special coins
>>
The W dime is a really neat coin and highlights the remarkable quality for which the West Point
Mint has become known. It's also a reminder that many of the circulating coins from the '70's
and '80's were actually made at West Point without a mint mark.
They deserve the attention they got from this coin. >>
I know the made unmarked pennies but what else did the make? >>
Quarters. >>
Pretty cool, thanks. Any known definitive correlation between any quarter die pairs and West Point?
Do not attach photos
Get an account on someplace like photobucket.
Once the photos are there, get back to is here
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Even though I don't do clad or moderns or really even bullion I made a PCGS double holder with the special 96w dime in 67 and a 96w $5 AGE (1/10th) in PF69.(they are about the same size) Cool little set with special coins
>>
The W dime is a really neat coin and highlights the remarkable quality for which the West Point
Mint has become known. It's also a reminder that many of the circulating coins from the '70's
and '80's were actually made at West Point without a mint mark.
They deserve the attention they got from this coin. >>
I know the made unmarked pennies but what else did the make? >>
Quarters. >>
Pretty cool, thanks. Any known definitive correlation between any quarter die pairs and West Point? >>
+1
<< <i>
Pretty cool, thanks. Any known definitive correlation between any quarter die pairs and West Point? >>
>>
Not to my knowledge.
I sometimes suspect that something involved with West Point caused the small motto (or type "d")
reverse quarters ('77-'84) but there's no simple solution since these were made at Denver as well.
It's not impossible that someone has a bag of quarters known to be struck at West Point, but I believe
these are not identifiable.
<< <i>...as well as Half-Dollars with a different surface finish on both sides, quite appealing. >>
There aren't many really nice nickels from either mint but the nice ones are spectacular.
Are you talking about the sort of "satin finish" half dollars? I've seen a few of these.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
I have to wonder if this is where the PCGS MS68 examples came from.
Regarding the 96w dime, the highest full band grade at PCGS is MS68FB. I am submitting one at FUN I believe has a chance to grade MS68+FB. I am probably just tossing another $65 away though as getting grades above MS68 with full bands is a very tall order obviously.
But, I agree with CK that the 96 mint set is a special set indeed!!
Wondercoin.
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<< <i>I sometimes suspect that something involved with West Point caused the small motto (or type "d")
reverse quarters ('77-'84) but there's no simple solution since these were made at Denver as well.
It's not impossible that someone has a bag of quarters known to be struck at West Point, but I believe
these are not identifiable. >>
If West Point struck quarters during the 1980's, which mint mark appears on the coin? All circulation strikes from that decade had either "P" or "D" mint marks.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>I think some of Washington Quarters, both P & D, can be absolutely gorgeous!
I have to wonder if this is where the PCGS MS68 examples came from. >>
Probably.
There is a very high correlation between the quality in mint sets and what the services have
graded at the high end of the grading curve. Of course this isn't really conclusive that the vast
majority of Gems come from mint sets because there is also a high correlation between mint
set quality of specific denomination/ dates to the coins made for circulation.
But two things here; first and foremost where quality in sets and in the corresponding coin dif-
fers it seems the pops more closely monitor mint set quality. Also with many moderns it is, as
you well know, extremely difficult to find BU rolls at all. While 1996 quarter rolls aren't as tough
as some others they certainly aren't coming out of the woodwork.
In my experience (from 1996) almost all of the coins made for circulation left the mint with marks
and scratches. A lot of dates in the clads were hardly worth searching and some of these later
eagle reverse coins I didn't put in a lot of effort in this determination as I probably should have.
It was difficult to obtain quantities of these to search and the odds of Gems in a given bag were
low. Of course if there was one Gem there would probably be dozens. My hat is off to those who
can find them and, no doubt, their efforts will be rewarded since some coins hardly appear as
Gems in the sets.
It was easier for me to obtain rolls to search in the '70's and '80's.
<< <i>Some of the nicest coins in my clad quarter collection are 96 p/d proof like blazers. The coins were graded ms68 many years ago and I have failed to upgrade any yet, but I believe a number of them are deserving of ms69, or ms68+. I will keep trying. >>
I've found a few top notch coins but ironically none of them are quarters.
The nicest quarters are blazing Gems and PL but not in the rarified atmosphere of MS-68+.
<< <i>
If West Point struck quarters during the 1980's, which mint mark appears on the coin? All circulation strikes from that decade had either "P" or "D" mint marks. >>
From '74 through '86 they produced cents with no mint marks and from 1976 through 1979 they made quarters.
I suppose if they had continued quarter production in 1980 they'd have used a "P" mint mark.
These dies are usually retired to strike circulation issues but it's rather surprising they haven't been previously
reported so maybe they all got into circulation or maybe the dies weren't reused. With a 30% attrition on cents
in '96 sets and implied survival rate might be around 100,000 coins. This should be similar to the '70-S sm dt.
I didn't notice the lack of the serif which is the best Pick Up Point. The top of the second "S" in "STATES" lacks
even a trace of a serif. There is a wide separation between the S and the rim on this scarcer variety. Perhaps
"Far S" is an appropriate name?
I'm hoping someone (or the discoverer of the lack of the serif) will post a picture so I don't have to get out the
instuction manual for the camera to see if I can do it before March of 2016.
<< <i>
<< <i>
If West Point struck quarters during the 1980's, which mint mark appears on the coin? All circulation strikes from that decade had either "P" or "D" mint marks. >>
From '74 through '86 they produced cents with no mint marks and from 1976 through 1979 they made quarters.
I suppose if they had continued quarter production in 1980 they'd have used a "P" mint mark. >>
Bizarre. Any reason they didn't just put on a W mint mark?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
If West Point struck quarters during the 1980's, which mint mark appears on the coin? All circulation strikes from that decade had either "P" or "D" mint marks. >>
From '74 through '86 they produced cents with no mint marks and from 1976 through 1979 they made quarters.
I suppose if they had continued quarter production in 1980 they'd have used a "P" mint mark. >>
Bizarre. Any reason they didn't just put on a W mint mark? >>
No doubt in 1974 it was to prevent hoarding. In fact the San Francisco Mint shipped most of their
production to Denver to be mixed with Denver cents to discourage people from saving rolls. Most
collectors seek solid date rolls. Judging by the difficulty of finding the '74-S sm dt cents which were
made in anticipation of the switch to aluminum the gambit was actually successful. Of course, part
of the success might be related to the more widespread distribution rather than the mixing itself.
In later years and with the quarters it's less clear why they wouldn't use the mintmark but no doubt
the same reasons and the status quo both applied.
<< <i>
"Far S" is an appropriate name?
I'm hoping someone (or the discoverer of the lack of the serif) will post a picture so I don't have to get out the
instuction manual for the camera to see if I can do it before March of 2016. >>
If someone will post a picture I'll promise to get a more accurate estimate. I've got access to few rolls
of random '96-D cents so it shouldn't be very much trouble.
I don't see anything special?????
<< <i>Blurry I phone picture of 96 Reverse from mint set.
I don't see anything special????? >>
We need a better picture and preferably a comparison with a normal one cent coin of the date.
The pics are somewhat pixelated as I had to blow them up to get a good view.
I believe this is the no serif cent
I believe this is the serif cent
Just my humble opinion.
<< <i>Here are some pics I took this evening of two sets I found today. The second S in States, looks significantly different to me on one that all the others that I've seen:
The pics are somewhat pixelated as I had to blow them up to get a good view.
I believe this is the no serif cent
I believe this is the serif cent >>
I think this might just be due to the strike characteristics on these 2 examples and not a difference in the lettering.
<< <i>Here are some pics I took this evening of two sets I found today. >>
Thanks LanLord.
I was about ready to pop a horse tranquilizer and get out the instructions for the camera.
<< <i>Or could it be die state variations? >>
No. I doubt it.
There are no inbetweens and the "far S'" or "no serif" coin tends to be more PL and more fully struck.
I'll try to get that incidence number tonight.
I had 4 sets (up until today) and none were the "far S".
I visited a B&M today and he had 5 sets, 1 of which was the "far S". I bought it and two others that had nice looking "W" dimes.
I'm 1 for 9 in sets I checked.
If others could post how many sets they have and how many are "far S", perhaps we could do an unscientific population SWAG.
OK, two things. First off all of these are two sided PL's. My initial estimate was
highly skewed because I've been separating Gems from rolls and I strongly favor
PL's over brilliant coins. I got the initial estimate from the ones I had set aside
to save for the future. There are not nearly so many in the discards.
It looks like the incidence is pretty close to 2.5% or a quarter of the first guess.
The really bad news is that there appears to be a third type even scarcer for which
those camera directions will be required.
<< <i>Aarrrrggghhhhh...
The really bad news is that there appears to be a third type even scarcer for which
those camera directions will be required. >>
Can you drop a hint at what this might be?
<< <i>
Can you drop a hint at what this might be? >>
I've never been scarced of looking like an idiot before and there's no need to start now.
There might be another one with an even "closer" S but I'll check it under the scope first. I'll have to get the picture since odds are no one will have one. This might be just a striking difference though and it's not nearly as dramatic as the "far S".
<< <i>
<< <i>
Can you drop a hint at what this might be? >>
I've never been scarced of looking like an idiot before and there's no need to start now.
There might be another one with an even "closer" S but I'll check it under the scope first. I'll have to get the picture since odds are no one will have one. This might be just a striking difference though and it's not nearly as dramatic as the "far S". >>
Thanks, I may need to look around for more 96s.
<< <i>Is even closer S on a PL? >>
No. Not at all.
<< <i>Exciting >>
Indeed!
I believe this is a major variety that has been overlooked just because it's in a set with the
more attention and eye catching W-mint dime. After all these years it will be widely dispersed
and it's much tougher than the '70-S sm dt. The coin is so dramatic that you can see it from
a distance. There won't be a lot of threads asking if some coin is the "far-S" or not since it is
so obvious.
I can't wait to hear expert opinion on it!
It's also interesting that there will be lots of high grade examples unlike most modern rarities.
ttt
First off, I'm going to shelve the idea that there is a third type (closer S) for the nonce. It
appears far more likely to be a result of a die that's beginning to show signs of wear. I haven't
identified the specific die yet so am not certain at this time.
The "far S" appear to all come from the same die pair. Indeed, with practice I believe I could
pickout the variety from the obverse alone since it has a specific and different PL texture than
other '96-D PL cents. It's a finer grain and lighter color than others. It's very attractive which
is no doubt what accounts for the high percentage of this variety in the saved coins. The reverse
die is also highly PL but more similar to other PL's of this date. It differs more slightly.
I'm still researching and hope to have much more. It's possible that this is simply a hubbing
variety but it seems pretty improbable to me. I know the dies are rounded when they take the
hub but this affects only the lettering on the top. It affects only "THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA" and nothing else which doesn't seem at all consistent with a hubbing mishap. That
it is not distorted also seems to argue that it is the result of a different hub having been pre-
pared for some purpose and inadvertantly used to strike coins.
I'll start looking at circulation issues soon as well.
ttt
<< <i>I'd be interested in getting some numbers on these.
I had 4 sets (up until today) and none were the "far S".
I visited a B&M today and he had 5 sets, 1 of which was the "far S". I bought it and two others that had nice looking "W" dimes.
I'm 1 for 9 in sets I checked.
If others could post how many sets they have and how many are "far S", perhaps we could do an unscientific population SWAG. >>
LanLord;
The only die marker I've found doesn't show up well on each specimen but it's
a tiny dot between the first two columns of the memorial. It's slightly above the
half way point and about two thirds of the way toward the right.