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Topic Title: Omar Vizquel a Hall of Famer?
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Created On: 6/10/2013 8:46 PM
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 6/11/2013 8:30 AM
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miwlvrn
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I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball.
 6/11/2013 8:48 AM
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psychump
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Yes he will make it, but by Veterans Committee. 13 seasons of average or below average stats. Loved him on the Giants! Remember to get in the Hall, the rules are play for ten years have five great years.

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 6/11/2013 8:49 AM
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NVbaseball
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<< I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball. >>



Yet in the Hall-of-Fame discussion it is now Vizquel who is overshadowing players like Bagwell, Piazza, McGriff, Martinez, who hit far more homeruns and were overall better players, but fell short
 6/11/2013 8:51 AM
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Ironmanfan
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I agree that Pedro Martinez is a first ballot Hall of Famer, but I think Vizquel will fall short (no pun intended)

Obviously, time will tell

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 6/11/2013 8:57 AM
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miwlvrn
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<<

<< I don't think he was suggesting that. It sounded more like he was saying that other players, not Vizquel, might be driven to juicing in order to put up more impressive batting stats since top fielding stats are otherwise overshadowed by the long ball. >>



Yet in the Hall-of-Fame discussion it is now Vizquel who is overshadowing players like Bagwell, Piazza, McGriff, Martinez, who hit far more homeruns and were overall better players, but fell short
>>



Yes, I agree. I think Bagwell might eventually get voted in, and Edgar Martinez gets in through the veterans committee. I think Vizquel will be ahead of Piazza and McGriff for voting, but it will be tougher for him because of the number of players who aren't suspected of PEDs (yet, anyway) who will have similar years of eligibilty. Not at all that Vizquel doesn't deserve to be HOF, but am wondering how many years does he wait since he has to compete w/ R.Johnson, Glavine, Maddux, Smoltz, P.Martinez, Griffey Jr., Biggio, F.Thomas, etc.?
 6/11/2013 9:57 AM
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vols1
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Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves.
 6/11/2013 10:08 AM
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psychump
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<< Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>



Rafael Palmiero won a Gold Glove in 1999 while playing in only 28 games in the field. Gold Gloves are a joke and have been for 20 years. Palmiero was a terrible firstbaseman with a career dWAR of almost -12!

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 6/11/2013 10:12 AM
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gregmo32
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"Remember to get in the Hall, the rules are play for ten years have five great years. "

One of those rules is written, the other unwritten.

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 6/11/2013 10:17 AM
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markj111
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<< Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>




I am curious-are you being serious? Or are you just trolling? I certainly hope it's the latter. I would not vote for Vizquel, but a lot of people will. He was vastly overrated as a defender. His range factor is league average for his career. Offensively, he was terrible-career OPS+ is 82. Trammell was a much better ball player. He had an OPS+ of 110. His range factor was slightly below average for his career.
 6/11/2013 10:17 AM
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digicat
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<< Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>



There's a higher premium on defense at shortstop than on defense at pitcher or 1st base.

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 6/11/2013 10:29 AM
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Charlie9
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Like the other Cleveland fans that posted, Omar may have been one of the most entertaining ball players to watch and no one had more fun playing the game. Brilliant with the glove (when he chose to even use it) but you throw in a pretty decent bat and I say he makes it in. Might not be right away but he should be in.
 6/11/2013 10:46 AM
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olb31
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<< I don't see the slam dunk here as much as others. .270 or so career hitter, 80 HR's, 2800 hits.

An 11 time gold glove winner would be the reason, but unless you're Ozzie Smith and single handedly changed perception about a position, are those 11 gold gloves enough?
>>



I am with you here. Bill Buckner and Johnny Damon were probably overall better than Omar during their primes. I think he is in the mix with a bunch of others. He needed the 3,000 hits to lock it up. How about Tommy John and Jim Kaat. Thier careers as pitchers were better than Omar's at SS.

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 6/11/2013 11:47 AM
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JoeBanzai
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Second all-time in fielding % at SS with the most games played, plus a decent hitter and some very good years stealing bases.

Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.

Omar gets in right away.

Joe

Edited to add; PLEASE stop comparing a shortstop to other positions is really foolish.

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 6/11/2013 11:49 AM
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hyperchipper09
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Trammell was better. In my opinion, by far better overall. And he's not in yet. He(Omar) lingered around a couple of extra years. I hope Trammell gets in before he does. I don't see Vizquel as anywhere close to being a lock.
 6/11/2013 11:57 AM
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JoeBanzai
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<< Trammell was better. In my opinion, by far better overall. And he's not in yet. He(Omar) lingered around a couple of extra years. I hope Trammell gets in before he does. I don't see Vizquel as anywhere close to being a lock. >>



Oops, Trammell was also above 100 (110) OPS+ with a .767 OPS. Rated #23 in fielding %.

He was also a great player and obviously one of the best hitting shortstops. I feel that at SS we need to focus primarily on defense, while not ignoring offense.

Joe

Edited to add Have you looked at Trammells last three years?

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 6/11/2013 12:09 PM
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NVbaseball
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<< Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.
>>



Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez, Vern Stephens, Jay Bell, Bill Dahlen, Jim Fregosi, Rico Petrocelli, Miguel Tejada, Cecil Travis, Nomar Garciaparra. . .
 6/11/2013 12:20 PM
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Coucher73
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<<

<< Probably not, Jim Kaat and Keith Hernandez can't get in with a bunch of Gold Gloves. >>




I am curious-are you being serious? Or are you just trolling? I certainly hope it's the latter. I would not vote for Vizquel, but a lot of people will. He was vastly overrated as a defender. His range factor is league average for his career. Offensively, he was terrible-career OPS+ is 82. Trammell was a much better ball player. He had an OPS+ of 110. His range factor was slightly below average for his career.
>>



Your comment about Vizquel being vastly overrated as a defender absolutely hits the nail on the head. Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time.

People constantly bring up Vizquel's name in the same light that they talk about Ozzie Smith and that's a JOKE. There's very little comparison between the two other than the highlight reel plays. Ozzie Smith was so far better as a defender that it isn't even funny. That's how great he was.
 6/11/2013 12:49 PM
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JoeBanzai
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<<

<< Come on folks, shortstops RARELY put up good OPS numbers. Ripken and Larkin are the only ones I could find above 100 for OPS+, Larkin was the only one above .800 at regular OPS and he rates #39 all time in fielding %.
>>



Alan Trammell, Tony Fernandez, Vern Stephens, Jay Bell, Bill Dahlen, Jim Fregosi, Rico Petrocelli, Miguel Tejada, Cecil Travis, Nomar Garciaparra. . .
>>



I addressed Trammell already. I forgot about Fregosi and Petrocelli, they were very good, Garciaparra was awesome his first 8 years, but has played more 1st and 3rd base since, Tejeda (a juicer? Named in Mitchell report), Fernandez was good the other guys I don't think measure up defensively.

I would say Petrocelli is the best of your bunch and if Nomar could have kept it up (didn't he suffer a serious injury or series of injuries?) he was an unbelievable hitter.

We both left of Jeter, but he isn't a great fielder.

Thanks for not bringing up ARoid!

Joe

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 6/11/2013 12:53 PM
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JoeBanzai
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<<

<<

<< Vizquel was a solid defender in that he didn't make many errors and he was always good at making the highlight reel play. But those facts alone don't make you the best defender (or even 2nd best) of all time. >>



Uh yes it does! Makes less errors, makes the highlight reel play, what more do you want............oh yes backflips. Ozzie may have been better, but not THAT much better.

Joe

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 6/11/2013 1:03 PM
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CollectorAtWork
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I think he'll squeeze in, but definitely not on the first ballot. Maybe 8th ballot or even Veterans Committee. He's probably helped out b/c he's not suspected of PED's, and the voters probably want to elect someone from this era if they're keeping all of the players with PED suspicions out. I would think that he's most comparable to Pee Wee Reese, who was elected to the Hall by the Veterans Committee. Vizquel is 10th in defensive WAR all time (Link), just ahead of Reese, but far behind Ozzie Smith.

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