Personally, I don't care about the picture one way or the other. I just find it... interesting... that you can scold Julian here:
.........it pesses me off to no end when someone of Julians stature suggests something to the tune of " yes - I saw the man fall dead of a gunshot wound : but I never actually saw the bullet flying thru the air "
and yet not be willing to post a picture of a coin you claim to know *for a fact* has fake toning.
<< <i>"It is my expert judgement having scrutinized the piece at great lengths in hand , that the coin is not naturally toned" >>
You're not willing to post a picture and explain to everybody how you recognized the coin for what it is (and perhaps help them protect themselves from purchasing coins which are not naturally toned, BTW) because "since I do not own the coin , that it would be in the best interest of the current owner, to post pix at this time" while eariler in this thread, you accused Julian of "hiding behind words in an attempt to appear helpless and unable to do anything."
<< <i>"well, I loved the coin , it was on the verge of the next grade up and had exotic color ! "
I wrote that previously in this post - maybe you missed it >>
You wrote that, and more. Kudos to you! You know what you want. And I'm sure that's one hell of a respectable collection you've got, there, as a result.
PS: As for me, I'm in the doghouse, right now, for having caused us to have missed our late dinner engagement last night. She's taking it out on me, by going on an unscheduled shopping trip, today. We and the brats (affectionately-speaking) are going on vacation, tomorrow, for two glorious weeks. But, I'll show her. I'm taking along my laptop, and it's not just going to be used for business!
Oh, did I forget to tell you...she hates my coin-collecting!
PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue.
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I see no evidence with which to do anything other than strongly agree with the above. Well said.
this is a quote , posted by you earlier in this thread :
"Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far."
Are you in your attempt to seek the truth going to far ?
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize.
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
It sounds as if you are saying Pawpaul is seeking a double standard. Either way, I think believe that there is a much different/greater duty on PNG members than there is or should be on collectors with respect to taking appropriate action.
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
I do not think my scolding of Julian was for not naming coin doctors, but I certainly do owe him an apology as well ; who am I to be so bold as to
question his judgement or intent ? I have the utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments and was out of line with my comments .
<< <i>It sounds as if you are saying Pawpaul is seeking a double standard. >>
Not exactly- I was basically commenting on PawPaul criticizing Julian for not reporting things Julian never claimed to see happen.
<< <i>Either way, I think believe that there is a much different/greater duty on PNG members than there is or should be on collectors with respect to taking appropriate action. >>
Fair enough. I was just thinking things might work out better if everybody was willing to hold themselves to the same standards. Wishful thinking, I suppose.
You tell me how to catch and punish one and I will be like stink on a pig getting it done -
you tell me how keeping the coin and knowing what to then do with it will accomplish -
you tell me how submitting it for review at my cost and having it returned in the same holder will help -
you tell me what you yourself are actively doing to thwart the doctors and I will support you 100% and do the same -
you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -
"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question; Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one.
I was commenting on the shabby treatment you gave Julian in this thread- nothing more. I see you have apologized to Julian, and for that, you deserve to be commended. As for the rest of your questions- if the answers are important to you, I'm sure you will devote the necessary effort into figuring them out.
Maybe you should tell us who the current owner is too.
The point is that if you are advocating posting names of suspected coin doctors, you should also be willing to post the coin and the name of the person who is trying to sell you an AT coin. After all, you are potentially the one being harmed (if you didn't return it).
edited to add: I didn't PM to get the image because I am just trying to make a point.
I don't want to get back into this merry-go-round. I think I had enough of that last night. FWIW, though, I think this needs a quick pointing out.
If it's a counterfeit, go for it, zero-tolerance, there, we had better make noise about that. In fact, the PNG would, I'm confident, in a heartbeat. When it's natural, oxidized toning, when it's cleaning, when it's tooling, when it's acid-dipping, when it's even PMD on a key-date coin...when it's things like that, those are matters of degree. Simply-put, we strike compromises, there, to keep this market moving along. Some don't, and, they probably never will, and, the more power to them, absolutely. The market, however, and the TPGs (who of course are charged with knowing and grading for same), generally, do. As such, I think those kinds should be differentiated, in terms of any "reporting" responsibilities.
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
I do not think my scolding of Julian was for not naming coin doctors, but I certainly do owe him an apology as well ; who am I to be so bold as to
question his judgement or intent ? I have the utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments and was out of line with my comments . >>
Apology not really necessary, but certainly accepted. We are just having a discussion.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I see no evidence with which to do anything other than strongly agree with the above. Well said. >>
I agree also. The organization is changing, little by little, because it is being forced to change. And thank you Julian, for being involved.
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question; Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
I can not be with my wife 100% of the time , it was more a figure of speech - implying harm could come to my family or myself if I crossed someone
with the means to retaliate in a violent way should I attempt to expose them .
I'm a funny guy - but I see no humor in that at all
<< <i>Maybe you should tell us who the current owner is too.
The point is that if you are advocating posting names of suspected coin doctors, you should also be willing to post the coin and the name of the person who is trying to sell you an AT coin. After all, you are potentially the one being harmed (if you didn't return it).
edited to add: I didn't PM to get the image because I am just trying to make a point. >>
I don't know that I expressly advocated posting names of suspected doctors in this thread .
My point , is that powerful people in the industry- with long strong arms ;
could do much to address this problem .........if they had a mind to and bent their influence towards the cause .
I have no real power , i am just a guppie in a sea of sharks
what little I can do is nothing compared to the power and might that someone like Julian wields .
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This question was asked in the Q&A section, to which David replied...."There is a person out of Chicago who does incredible toned jobs on nickels and the color looks something like this. But he does mostly expensive Buffalo nickels. "
I wonder why he doesn't just come out and say Nick Ciancio is the great Buffalo nickel doctor he is talking about? Mr Ciancio even brags at major shows about the thousands of coins he has slid past PCGS graders over the years. BTW he is in Niles, IL., not Chicago.
Edited: Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 5:03 PM by exposer
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question; Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
Actually there are some pretty rough folks out there in our coin collecting universe. I know more than ONE that gives me
concern. >>
I can just visualize their conversation... Vinny: Hey Guido someone just outed a friend of mine for being a coin doctor. Should we whack 'em? Guido: Well Vinny, he may be a friend of yours but that don't make him a friend of ours.
.............I'm a lot less nervous now , so I allowed myself a little chuckle over Vinnie's and Guido's conversation
this is from another thread :
Sunday August 01, 2010 3:51 PM
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<<
<< As PerryHall said, maybe someone wil start naming names. PCGS got things off to a good start but apparantly everyone in the business knows who these guys are but won't do/say anything. >>
It's not as easy as that. A few years ago, some of us were vocal on one of the biggest XXXXXXXX in the business and all of us were sued. When I was told that I could be out of pocket up to $300,000.00 just for using words like "lowlife" , believe me I backed off and thankfully was dropped from the lawsuit as being the only dealr in Fla that was part of the suit and not having homestead filed on our house ( would have lost it ) at the time while simultanously going thru open heart surgery while being told I had more surgeries to enjoy in the months ahead, I was very happy to have been dropped from the suit.
So, if anyone is hoping for Laura to take it on the chin and "name names"............ >>
Mr. Early gold ,
thank you very much for posting that ......... a few on these boards have been insisting names be provided for years ; seemingly unaware or ignorant
of the consequences . Thank you again
------------------------- the real rewards and joys in life come not from what you can hold in your hand ; but from what pours from your heart and streams down your cheeks .
you been on the boards for over 7 years and only got 32 posts ........... when a person who seldom speaks talks - I LISTEN
I had no idea years ago you outed the Dr. Nick C .......... you got some stones and I admire your courage >>
He used to share a table, sometimes, at shows with a crack out, putty artist from Georgia. His name is Mark, (forgot his last name). He is/was a wannabe preacher and so cheap that if you came to his house and flushed the toilet more than once a day he would go off screaming about how expensive water was.
you been on the boards for over 7 years and only got 32 posts ........... when a person who seldom speaks talks - I LISTEN
I had no idea years ago you outed the Dr. Nick C .......... you got some stones and I admire your courage >>
He used to share a table, sometimes, at shows with a crack out, putty artist from Georgia. His name is Mark, (forgot his last name). He is/was a wannabe preacher and so cheap that if you came to his house and flushed the toilet more than once a day he would go off screaming about how expensive water was. >>
I remember Mark .......but had no idea he was connected to doctoring as well .........he sure was into slabbed gold - I will give you that
You know, Pawpaul in many ways I agree with the things you are saying. I am a strong advocate for stopping coin doctoring and have done more than most over the years to stop it (NANA, Photo Seal, educating people in my books and articles).
But I think you have stepped way over the line by taking the stance of attcking people you don't know and making it a case against the PNG dealers. I think given all the places where you can buy coins ranging from PNG dealers to other mail order/Internet dealers to eBay dealers to just anybody selling their duplicates. You'll do better buying from the PNG dealers. I think most of the doctored coins are being marketed on eBay or some other somewhat anonymous way, like country auctions. By attacking PNG dealers, you make them out to be the bad guys, which they aren't.
Also, when you start parroting things about Mark (I also convienently forgot his last name) you run the risk of getting yourself in big trouble with the whole community here. I have known him for a long time and never once heard him associated with coin doctoring. Maybe I havn't listened hard enough. Mark is a Chaplain who has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and to disparage him publicly on this board without proof is too much. Yes, I know exposer brought him up, but you are the one running with it.
And what good does it do anyway? You get a bunch of people mad and nothing gets accomplished. It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards.
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question; Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
Actually there are some pretty rough folks out there in our coin collecting universe. I know more than ONE that gives me
concern. >>
I can just visualize their conversation... Vinny: Hey Guido someone just outed a friend of mine for being a coin doctor. Should we whack 'em? Guido: Well Vinny, he may be a friend of yours but that don't make him a friend of ours. >>
<< <i>You know, Pawpaul in many ways I agree with the things you are saying. I am a strong advocate for stopping coin doctoring and have done more than most over the years to stop it (NANA, Photo Seal, educating people in my books and articles).
But I think you have stepped way over the line by taking the stance of attcking people you don't know and making it a case against the PNG dealers. I think given all the places where you can buy coins ranging from PNG dealers to other mail order/Internet dealers to eBay dealers to just anybody selling their duplicates. You'll do better buying from the PNG dealers. I think most of the doctored coins are being marketed on eBay or some other somewhat anonymous way, like country auctions. By attacking PNG dealers, you make them out to be the bad guys, which they aren't.
Also, when you start parroting things about Mark (I also convienently forgot his last name) you run the risk of getting yourself in big trouble with the whole community here. I have known him for a long time and never once heard him associated with coin doctoring. Maybe I havn't listened hard enough. Mark is a Chaplain who has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and to disparage him publicly on this board without proof is too much. Yes, I know exposer brought him up, but you are the one running with it.
And what good does it do anyway? You get a bunch of people mad and nothing gets accomplished. It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards.
Also, I didn't catch your real name.
Edited to add: MOC too, geeze! >>
I think you give me too much credit ............attacking people I don't know ? Do you really think I have attacked anyone ? Much less the PNG ?
"I remember Mark .......but had no idea he was connected to doctoring as well .........he sure was into slabbed gold - I will give you that " .........
...you consider that statement disparaging ? I knew him -
and the fishie comment was in reference to the Vito / Guido conversation
apparently , from many of your comments that are not well thought out and do not really reflect the facts ; I seem to really have gotten under your skin .
That was not my intent , and I do not wish to continue defending my position or opinion to you .
The process of outing the coin doctors my cause many of us mixed feelings as we well may be friends with or even related to such people .
I too have stated repeatedly that I will strive to educate people so they stop buying doctored coins ............
" It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards. "
I agree with your quote above wholeheartedly ;
but I must say , in my effort to do so in this thread - you are the primary one playing whack-a-mole : on ME !
Sorry, I don't mean to be seen as attacking anyone here, however, I do see a pattern with your posts that disturbs me. I think there are many people who are afraid to post to this thread lest they get hit by your wild shooting.
"Also, when you start parroting things about Mark (I also conveniently forgot his last name) you run the risk of getting yourself in big trouble with the whole community here. I have known him for a long time and never once heard him associated with coin doctoring. Maybe I havn't listened hard enough. Mark is a Chaplain who has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and to disparage him publicly on this board without proof is too much. Yes, I know exposer brought him up, but you are the one running with it."
Rick--I can guarantee you haven't listened hard enough. Mark would never be able to pass a lie detector test, if you could get him to take one. Furthermore, just because he is a "Chaplain" doesn't absolve him from wrong doing. There are plenty of other bad clergy folks out there; they're just not into coins.
You are right though about educating folks on how to identify doctored coins. If everyone knew how to do this the doctors would be out of business. That very well might be the best way to go. Start that school now before some Dr. steals your idea and gets even more rich by running with it.
I have to believe that photography will eventually be able to capture most if not the best works. Then an illustrated book can be produced ?
Maybe there are a few photographers who can do the job now? Or someone else who can "collect" images from willing, even anonymous donors and put one together?
Oops, a little off topic, but then again if the PNG is adopting a new doctoring definition, perhaps they could pursue the creation of a new illustrated book before someone else does?
Comments
I wrote that previously in this post - maybe you missed it
I just got back from the movies with my son , we saw " The Last Airbender " ...........i really enjoyed it : but you know , it was just a movie -
a fantasy , not real ...........but I still enjoyed the heck out of it .
But I'm not going to start to live my life by the Airbenders principles , because although it mimicked real life somewhat -
it was just a projection of colored light on a movie screen .
I thought the tone on the coin I returned was stunning , It was very well done .........beautiful colors, swirling pastels and glistening
MS 66 surfaces , although PCGS had graded it only MS 65......
I loved it in just the same way I loved the movie I just saw; it's visual presence was stunning -
but the toning was fake , so I returned it
<< <i>I do not believe , since I do not own the coin , that it would be in the best interest of the current owner, to post pix at this time . >>
"this kind of statement is precisely why coin doctoring is ramped and unchecked ; knowledgeable people are hiding behind words in an attempt to appear helpless and unable to do anything."
Tell you what , if you agree not to reproduce or post the image without the permission of the current owner ; PM me and I will send you the image .
.........it pesses me off to no end when someone of Julians stature suggests something to the tune of " yes - I saw the man fall dead of a gunshot wound : but I never actually saw the bullet flying thru the air "
and yet not be willing to post a picture of a coin you claim to know *for a fact* has fake toning.
I will waste my time playing with you and others as long as we deal in facts .
It is my expert judgement having scrutinized the piece at great lengths in hand , that the coin is not naturally toned ,
and you or anyone else that feels they can make an objective and
realistic decision about the originality of the coins toning from an image , by all means - PM me .
<< <i>"It is my expert judgement having scrutinized the piece at great lengths in hand , that the coin is not naturally toned" >>
You're not willing to post a picture and explain to everybody how you recognized the coin for what it is (and perhaps help them protect themselves from purchasing coins which are not naturally toned, BTW) because "since I do not own the coin , that it would be in the best interest of the current owner, to post pix at this time" while eariler in this thread, you accused Julian of "hiding behind words in an attempt to appear helpless and unable to do anything."
Nice.
- No one has yet to P.M me
<< <i>"well, I loved the coin , it was on the verge of the next grade up and had exotic color ! "
I wrote that previously in this post - maybe you missed it >>
You wrote that, and more. Kudos to you! You know what you want. And I'm sure that's one hell of a respectable collection you've got, there, as a result.
PS: As for me, I'm in the doghouse, right now, for having caused us to have missed our late dinner engagement last night. She's taking it out on me, by going on an unscheduled shopping trip, today. We and the brats (affectionately-speaking) are going on vacation, tomorrow, for two glorious weeks. But, I'll show her. I'm taking along my laptop, and it's not just going to be used for business!
Oh, did I forget to tell you...she hates my coin-collecting!
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I see no evidence with which to do anything other than strongly agree with the above. Well said.
<< <i>Maybe you should tell us who the current owner is too. >>
Mr. Snow ,
I never got a PM from you requesting a link to the coin and/or the owner, which as I have said repeatedly , I would be happy to do .
In fact , not a single person has PM'd me requesting anything .
I am a Franklin specialist ,and have studied Mint Set toning for decades ..........
Would it be alright with you if I go thru your imaged inventory and pick out any Indian Head cents that I believe are Q.T ,
and post them here in this thread ? If in fact the best thing I can do to combat artificial toning is to post them here and let people judge them.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe you should tell us who the current owner is too. >>
Mr. Snow ,
I never got a PM from you requesting a link to the coin and/or the owner, which as I have said repeatedly , I would be happy to do .
In fact , not a single person has PM'd me requesting anything . >>
Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission.
"Going into more marketable (for lack of a better word) doctored coins, like lasered hairlines, and retoned coins, these do still have a value and there are dealers who have no problem selling them, even mentioning the reworking. They show up in auctions too. What if a dealer gets one of these in as part of a larger collection? No fault of his own, but now he has to get his money back out of it. (say its a lasered proof gold coin worth $10K) Is he now to be hung up and tortured for offering the coin? Does the auction company who gets that coin consigned get the same treatment? What if he gives to a collector to try and sell on the floor? It he putting that collector at risk while avoiding risk on himself?
I think the problem with aggressive enforcement is that people have a tendency to go too far."
Are you in your attempt to seek the truth going to far ?
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize.
that in not doing so I am not attempting to hide anything .
<< <i>
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
It sounds as if you are saying Pawpaul is seeking a double standard. Either way, I think believe that there is a much different/greater duty on PNG members than there is or should be on collectors with respect to taking appropriate action.
<< <i>
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
I do not think my scolding of Julian was for not naming coin doctors, but I certainly do owe him an apology as well ; who am I to be so bold as to
question his judgement or intent ? I have the utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments and was out of line with my comments .
<< <i>It sounds as if you are saying Pawpaul is seeking a double standard. >>
Not exactly- I was basically commenting on PawPaul criticizing Julian for not reporting things Julian never claimed to see happen.
<< <i>Either way, I think believe that there is a much different/greater duty on PNG members than there is or should be on collectors with respect to taking appropriate action. >>
Fair enough. I was just thinking things might work out better if everybody was willing to hold themselves to the same standards. Wishful thinking, I suppose.
You tell me how to catch and punish one and I will be like stink on a pig getting it done -
you tell me how keeping the coin and knowing what to then do with it will accomplish -
you tell me how submitting it for review at my cost and having it returned in the same holder will help -
you tell me what you yourself are actively doing to thwart the doctors and I will support you 100% and do the same -
you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question;
Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one.
I was commenting on the shabby treatment you gave Julian in this thread- nothing more. I see you have apologized to Julian, and for that, you deserve to be commended. As for the rest of your questions- if the answers are important to you, I'm sure you will devote the necessary effort into figuring them out.
The point is that if you are advocating posting names of suspected coin doctors, you should also be willing to post the coin and the name of the person who is trying to sell you an AT coin. After all, you are potentially the one being harmed (if you didn't return it).
edited to add: I didn't PM to get the image because I am just trying to make a point.
If it's a counterfeit, go for it, zero-tolerance, there, we had better make noise about that. In fact, the PNG would, I'm confident, in a heartbeat. When it's natural, oxidized toning, when it's cleaning, when it's tooling, when it's acid-dipping, when it's even PMD on a key-date coin...when it's things like that, those are matters of degree. Simply-put, we strike compromises, there, to keep this market moving along. Some don't, and, they probably never will, and, the more power to them, absolutely. The market, however, and the TPGs (who of course are charged with knowing and grading for same), generally, do. As such, I think those kinds should be differentiated, in terms of any "reporting" responsibilities.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Since you don't own the coin, I think you are doing the right thing in not posting it or the name of the seller here, without his permission. >>
I would agree with this.
I do think it's unreasonable for PawPaul, who claims to have knowledge of the existance of a specific AT coin but is unwilling to point it out, to criticize Julian for not naming coin doctors who Julian has never himself claimed to see operate.
I guess my point here has been too subtle, and for that, I apologize. >>
I do not think my scolding of Julian was for not naming coin doctors, but I certainly do owe him an apology as well ; who am I to be so bold as to
question his judgement or intent ? I have the utmost respect for the man and his accomplishments and was out of line with my comments . >>
Apology not really necessary, but certainly accepted. We are just having a discussion.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I see no evidence with which to do anything other than strongly agree with the above. Well said. >>
I agree also. The organization is changing, little by little, because it is being forced to change. And thank you Julian, for being involved.
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>PNG has been brought into this issue 'kicking and screaming' IMO. Sadly, I must agree with those who observe that they are mostly a reactive organization rather than proactive. I think this latest action is designed more to simply convince the public that the PNG is 'doing something' about the problem and they they are out there protecting the collector, the ultimate consumer of their product. I do not think it is being done to set down a standard which they intend to enforce within its membership. They want to be perceived as an important guardian of the collectors interest...without actually guarding the collectors interest. I don't think the organization is out there actively trying to hurt the consumer...I just don't think they are doing a whole heck of a lot to actually protect us...and this 'johnny come lately' definition doesn't change my opinion on that issue. >>
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. >>
Yup. So does Laura in her long-awaited rebuttal.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question;
Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
I can not be with my wife 100% of the time , it was more a figure of speech - implying harm could come to my family or myself if I crossed someone
with the means to retaliate in a violent way should I attempt to expose them .
I'm a funny guy - but I see no humor in that at all
<< <i>Maybe you should tell us who the current owner is too.
The point is that if you are advocating posting names of suspected coin doctors, you should also be willing to post the coin and the name of the person who is trying to sell you an AT coin. After all, you are potentially the one being harmed (if you didn't return it).
edited to add: I didn't PM to get the image because I am just trying to make a point. >>
I don't know that I expressly advocated posting names of suspected doctors in this thread .
My point , is that powerful people in the industry- with long strong arms ;
could do much to address this problem .........if they had a mind to and bent their influence towards the cause .
I have no real power , i am just a guppie in a sea of sharks
what little I can do is nothing compared to the power and might that someone like Julian wields .
Wednesday March 26, 2003 8:41 AM
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This question was asked in the Q&A section, to which David replied...."There is a person out of Chicago who does incredible toned jobs on nickels and the color looks something like this. But he does mostly expensive Buffalo nickels. "
I wonder why he doesn't just come out and say Nick Ciancio is the great Buffalo nickel doctor he is talking about? Mr Ciancio even brags at major shows about the thousands of coins he has slid past PCGS graders over the years.
BTW he is in Niles, IL., not Chicago.
Edited: Wednesday March 26, 2003 at 5:03 PM by exposer
you been on the boards for over 7 years and only got 32 posts ........... when a person who seldom speaks talks - I LISTEN
I had no idea years ago you outed the Dr. Nick C .......... you got some stones and I admire your courage
<< <i>
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question;
Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
Actually there are some pretty rough folks out there in our coin collecting universe. I know more than ONE that gives me
concern. >>
I can just visualize their conversation...
Vinny: Hey Guido someone just outed a friend of mine for being a coin doctor. Should we whack 'em?
Guido: Well Vinny, he may be a friend of yours but that don't make him a friend of ours.
this is from another thread :
Sunday August 01, 2010 3:51 PM
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<<
<< As PerryHall said, maybe someone wil start naming names. PCGS got things off to a good start but apparantly everyone in the business knows who these guys are but won't do/say anything. >>
It's not as easy as that. A few years ago, some of us were vocal on one of the biggest XXXXXXXX in the business and all of us were sued. When I was told that I could be out of pocket up to $300,000.00 just for using words like "lowlife" , believe me I backed off and thankfully was dropped from the lawsuit as being the only dealr in Fla that was part of the suit and not having homestead filed on our house ( would have lost it ) at the time while simultanously going thru open heart surgery while being told I had more surgeries to enjoy in the months ahead, I was very happy to have been dropped from the suit.
So, if anyone is hoping for Laura to take it on the chin and "name names"............ >>
Mr. Early gold ,
thank you very much for posting that ......... a few on these boards have been insisting names be provided for years ; seemingly unaware or ignorant
of the consequences . Thank you again
-------------------------
the real rewards and joys in life come not from what you can hold in your hand ; but from what pours from your heart and streams down your cheeks .
A.N.A Member R-3154023
<< <i>Exposer ,
you been on the boards for over 7 years and only got 32 posts ........... when a person who seldom speaks talks - I LISTEN
I had no idea years ago you outed the Dr. Nick C .......... you got some stones and I admire your courage >>
He used to share a table, sometimes, at shows with a crack out, putty artist from Georgia. His name is Mark, (forgot his last name). He is/was a wannabe preacher and so cheap that if you came to his house and flushed the toilet more than once a day he would go off screaming about how expensive water was.
<< <i>
<< <i>Exposer ,
you been on the boards for over 7 years and only got 32 posts ........... when a person who seldom speaks talks - I LISTEN
I had no idea years ago you outed the Dr. Nick C .......... you got some stones and I admire your courage >>
He used to share a table, sometimes, at shows with a crack out, putty artist from Georgia. His name is Mark, (forgot his last name). He is/was a wannabe preacher and so cheap that if you came to his house and flushed the toilet more than once a day he would go off screaming about how expensive water was. >>
I remember Mark .......but had no idea he was connected to doctoring as well .........he sure was into slabbed gold - I will give you that
maybe Markie ended up swimmin' with the fishies
But I think you have stepped way over the line by taking the stance of attcking people you don't know and making it a case against the PNG dealers. I think given all the places where you can buy coins ranging from PNG dealers to other mail order/Internet dealers to eBay dealers to just anybody selling their duplicates. You'll do better buying from the PNG dealers. I think most of the doctored coins are being marketed on eBay or some other somewhat anonymous way, like country auctions. By attacking PNG dealers, you make them out to be the bad guys, which they aren't.
Also, when you start parroting things about Mark (I also convienently forgot his last name) you run the risk of getting yourself in big trouble with the whole community here. I have known him for a long time and never once heard him associated with coin doctoring. Maybe I havn't listened hard enough. Mark is a Chaplain who has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and to disparage him publicly on this board without proof is too much. Yes, I know exposer brought him up, but you are the one running with it.
And what good does it do anyway? You get a bunch of people mad and nothing gets accomplished. It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards.
Edited to add: MOC too, geeze!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"you tell me how outing a big time doctor I know personally , with alleged ties to organized crime , is going to protect my young son on his way to school or keep my wife safe in a dark alley -"
Now that's really funny.
Sorry couldn't resist editing this post to give you my opinion on the last half of your above quoted question;
Don't let your wife into a dark alley in the first place. If I were married I know I wouldn't let mine walk down one. >>
Actually there are some pretty rough folks out there in our coin collecting universe. I know more than ONE that gives me
concern. >>
I can just visualize their conversation...
Vinny: Hey Guido someone just outed a friend of mine for being a coin doctor. Should we whack 'em?
Guido: Well Vinny, he may be a friend of yours but that don't make him a friend of ours. >>
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>You know, Pawpaul in many ways I agree with the things you are saying. I am a strong advocate for stopping coin doctoring and have done more than most over the years to stop it (NANA, Photo Seal, educating people in my books and articles).
But I think you have stepped way over the line by taking the stance of attcking people you don't know and making it a case against the PNG dealers. I think given all the places where you can buy coins ranging from PNG dealers to other mail order/Internet dealers to eBay dealers to just anybody selling their duplicates. You'll do better buying from the PNG dealers. I think most of the doctored coins are being marketed on eBay or some other somewhat anonymous way, like country auctions. By attacking PNG dealers, you make them out to be the bad guys, which they aren't.
Also, when you start parroting things about Mark (I also convienently forgot his last name) you run the risk of getting yourself in big trouble with the whole community here. I have known him for a long time and never once heard him associated with coin doctoring. Maybe I havn't listened hard enough. Mark is a Chaplain who has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and to disparage him publicly on this board without proof is too much. Yes, I know exposer brought him up, but you are the one running with it.
And what good does it do anyway? You get a bunch of people mad and nothing gets accomplished. It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards.
Also, I didn't catch your real name.
Edited to add: MOC too, geeze! >>
I think you give me too much credit ............attacking people I don't know ? Do you really think I have attacked anyone ? Much less the PNG ?
"I remember Mark .......but had no idea he was connected to doctoring as well .........he sure was into slabbed gold - I will give you that " .........
...you consider that statement disparaging ? I knew him -
and the fishie comment was in reference to the Vito / Guido conversation
apparently , from many of your comments that are not well thought out and do not really reflect the facts ; I seem to really have gotten under your skin .
That was not my intent , and I do not wish to continue defending my position or opinion to you .
The process of outing the coin doctors my cause many of us mixed feelings as we well may be friends with or even related to such people .
I too have stated repeatedly that I will strive to educate people so they stop buying doctored coins ............
" It is much better to educate people so they don't buy doctored coins rather than trying to play whack-a-mole on the boards. "
I agree with your quote above wholeheartedly ;
but I must say , in my effort to do so in this thread - you are the primary one playing whack-a-mole : on ME !
Rick--I can guarantee you haven't listened hard enough. Mark would never be able to pass a lie detector test, if you could get him to take one.
Furthermore, just because he is a "Chaplain" doesn't absolve him from wrong doing. There are plenty of other bad clergy folks out there; they're just not into coins.
You are right though about educating folks on how to identify doctored coins. If everyone knew how to do this the doctors would be out of business. That very well might be the best way to go. Start that school now before some Dr. steals your idea and gets even more rich by running with it.
I am guilty of shooting myself in the foot. Allow me to try to express my views in a gentler, more considerate tone .
In hopes that everyone will contribute to this discussion , I pledge to be more respectful of differing view's and will strive
to not be so judgemental
Maybe there are a few photographers who can do the job now? Or someone else who can "collect" images from willing, even anonymous donors and put one together?
Oops, a little off topic, but then again if the PNG is adopting a new doctoring definition, perhaps they could pursue the creation of a new illustrated book before someone else does?
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870