Morgans - OGH Frustration
Obiwancanoli
Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭
Perhaps it's due to my relative new-ness to the hobby (a couple of years now), but as I canvass Ebay (at this point, it's nearly been my exclusive coin resource), I find that many of the coins I seek to fill the holes are in OGH, and it would seem because of that, they are also often about 50% more, in terms of the starting bid, or more often, the BIN.
As my talent - weak though it may be - for grading coins contiunues to evolve, I remain unconvinced that coins in OGH are any "better" than those in more contemporary [PCGS] slabs. Eye appeal being, arguably, somewhat subjective, by and large these coins compare relatively consistently within the same grade.
Now, Morgans are among my favorites, as I pretty much started collecting these due to my familiarity with the breed. I think, as a consequence, I've become somewhat reliable in judging what I feel may be a good buy, and yet I can't seem to justify the additional expense for a coin in an OGH when it appears, to me anyway, as nice a coin as one which is NOT in an OGH, yet in the identical grade.
Without agreeing entirely on this point, I understand why PCGS is perceived as having somewhat of a premium over NGC for the same grade, however, it seems an endless effort to further slice the pie into more exclusive "classes" within the same TPG at the same grade by the presumption, in this case, that coins in OGH are marketed as if somehow they possess a greater premium simply for that distinction. Which brings me to my point...
Would it insult the seller to make an offer - where such auctions allow - consistent with what a given coin would normally be valued at, absent the OGH? Do sellers of coins in OGH believe their own hype that, somehow, coins in OGH were more stringently graded than coins are today? Are older slabs in general perceived as having greater value when, as has happened prominently in recent memory, they are redesigned to keep up with contemporary expectations?
Or, am I still a rookie here? Am I myself still too "green" to understand, or appreciate, that there is more fact than reality to the OGH perception?
I'd sure appreciate your objective thoughts on this - thanks
As my talent - weak though it may be - for grading coins contiunues to evolve, I remain unconvinced that coins in OGH are any "better" than those in more contemporary [PCGS] slabs. Eye appeal being, arguably, somewhat subjective, by and large these coins compare relatively consistently within the same grade.
Now, Morgans are among my favorites, as I pretty much started collecting these due to my familiarity with the breed. I think, as a consequence, I've become somewhat reliable in judging what I feel may be a good buy, and yet I can't seem to justify the additional expense for a coin in an OGH when it appears, to me anyway, as nice a coin as one which is NOT in an OGH, yet in the identical grade.
Without agreeing entirely on this point, I understand why PCGS is perceived as having somewhat of a premium over NGC for the same grade, however, it seems an endless effort to further slice the pie into more exclusive "classes" within the same TPG at the same grade by the presumption, in this case, that coins in OGH are marketed as if somehow they possess a greater premium simply for that distinction. Which brings me to my point...
Would it insult the seller to make an offer - where such auctions allow - consistent with what a given coin would normally be valued at, absent the OGH? Do sellers of coins in OGH believe their own hype that, somehow, coins in OGH were more stringently graded than coins are today? Are older slabs in general perceived as having greater value when, as has happened prominently in recent memory, they are redesigned to keep up with contemporary expectations?
Or, am I still a rookie here? Am I myself still too "green" to understand, or appreciate, that there is more fact than reality to the OGH perception?
I'd sure appreciate your objective thoughts on this - thanks
UBERCOINER
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
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Comments
1. Don't form your opinion only from the coins you see on eBay. Look at dealer websites and other online resources. More importantly, go to shows and local shops where you can view as many coins as possible in hand.
2. Likewise, don't assume that your grading skills are where they should be *if* you have honed those skills primarily by looking at coins on eBay or other online pictures.
3. Old green holders do provide a very real level of stability for a coin. This is especially important with copper. But this level of stability also extends to Morgans and other coins; if the coin has been dipped or messed with in any way in the past, at least it's been in the OGH for several years and is far less likely to turn in the holder from the way you see it now.
4. Great coins can be found in any holder, new or old. Offer to buy a coin at what you think it's worth realistically...base your offer on the coin, with some consideration for the stability factor I mentioned above.
5. If you ever intend to sell your coins or "flip" them for a profit, there is no denying the perception that OGH coins are undergraded. Buyers are attracted to that possibility and will often give more consideration to an OGH coin because of this. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.
"Because I can"
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Remember: any OGH coins that were tried for upgrade but didn't make it, still look just as nice now but they are no longer in OGH plastic.
Interesting example when the Titanic sank it was a novelty to have a menu from the night of the disaster 20 years after the sinking not worth much...that interesting example is now minium of 12 K....of course its close to 100 years later but it still is very "rare"...
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
However, if you are collecting with the intent of also investing, then there is a difference between a PCGS MS65 and any other. Once you pass the MS64 mark something magic happens and for investment, you will always get more from an MS66/67+ Morgan that is in a PCGS holder than any other.
As mentioned... Looking elsewhere at coins and examining the grading, other than just EBay, is also a very good idea and a great way to hone your skills. It will also help you avoid cleaned, wizzed, or AT coins for sure.
I have been seeking out, in a small way, other sites, such as Teletrade, and one or two online B & M's. Comparative shopping is my goal, and it affords me the pleasure of seeing many different coins - albeit not in hand - in consistent grades, and has given me insight into "nice for the grade" coins versus the alternative. This, methinks, helps me in not so much determing a grade, but rather, determining if a graded coin has that certain eye appeal (plus other factors, of course) to be the best example of that coin in that grade, and thus, in the end, to judge its worth to me by way of bidding or buying a coin outright.
I'd thoroughly enjoy a good coin show, or ten, and living in the S.F. North Bay Area, I'm sure there are many, large and small, to consider... anyone know the best place to tap information on local shows?
A Truth That's Told With Bad Intent
Beats All The Lies You Can Invent
<< <i>I'd thoroughly enjoy a good coin show, or ten, and living in the S.F. North Bay Area, I'm sure there are many, large and small, to consider... anyone know the best place to tap information on local shows? >>
Try www.coinshows.com and specifically this for Northern California...then Google.
Obiwancanoli,
I think it is a big mistake to limit your buying to ebay. TT is problematic because of their often poor picture quality although there have been times the coin or note I received from a TT auction win was actually better in hand than what I expected to see. A source I've had very good dealings with is David Lawrence Rare Coins. You'll find DLRC easy to search. Their coin scans usually give you a decent idea as to whether or not the coin is right for your collection. DLRC customer service is among the best. As an online dealer site, it is probably one of the easiest to use. They identify older holders. You can search for them if you want to. There are mixed perceptions on OHG's, as has already been noted. Is the OGH a coin that obviously won't upgrade, doomed to stay in the OGH, or is it a coin graded when standards were more strict and now an obvious potential upgrade? You do have to look at the coin first, holder second. Tthe best thing about OGH's is your knowing the coin hasn't been messed with for several years. Sometimes the OGH coin is worth a premium, sometimes not. Again, ebay is probably not your best numismatic source for finding nice coins. Investigating any local coin shops should be high on your list.
Good collecting to you
I would recommend trying to attend one of the major national shows someday when you have an opportunity. The amount of Morgans for sale is amazing and it would give you an opportunity to really get a feel for each grade and year. Being a big coin, they tend to be a bit easier to grade than some other coins and with the vast number in slabs you can easily research your target grade.
Quality will always cost more and you should probably check out Heritage auctions if you are looking to buy online. Just another place that has a ton of available coins without having to travel. My experiences have been good with them. Read the boards as others may have a different opinion. Much is the grade level you are collecting. I would have different recommendations for different target grades.
Good Luck!
Especially shows in which there are auctions.
I attended the Atlanta Whitman Show just to watch and learn.
What was nice with auctions, you could request any lot of coin/coins that you wished to view and take your time, compare, etc...
Now I'll actually read your thread and maybe have something more intelligent to contribute. Don't count on it, though.
<< <i>Am I myself still too "green" to understand, or appreciate, that there is more fact than reality to the OGH perception? >>
OK, unless I myself am too "green" to understand or appreciate, I would say that it is just that: perception.
A dozen people could prove the "OGH is better" theory, and another dozen could probably disprove it.
Just as PCGS as a whole is the finest grading service in the marketplace. That's because they're perceived to be the finest, for many reasons both real and imaginary.
(Of course they're the finest 'cause they provide us with these fine forums- that's a solid fact.)