Unmarked Fakes from chinese ebay seller confirmed with witnesses
Frankcoins
Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭
I ordered two sample packages from seller jinghuashei, both forwarded unopened -- one to the Texas Coin Dealer Assoc, and the second to members of the Fort Worth Coin Club. The TCDA package was opened in presence of a postal inspector. Witnesses confirmed that the fake coins do NOT have the copy stamp shown in the sellers photos. We have been talking to someone named "Heidi" (her again!!) from the so-called "Coin Community Watch" who has been very rude and tells me the seller is complying with the law..because "COPY" is Photoshopped on the seller's images. Susan McMillian of the ANA said that "Heidi" is a fake name used by a number of eBay employess, and says that I need to firmly ask Heidi for either her real name or ebay employee ID. Now Heidi threatens me for "abusing ebay staff." However the postal inspector is still looking in to the matter, but they are pretty dense...they still think the fake trade dollar looks real! I am SO sick of ebay allowing this fraud to go on, and then taking action AGAINST the people who are trying to protect other members!
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
0
Comments
"no good deed goes unpunished".
You are attempting to interfere with a big stream of cash going into eBay.
They have lawyers that can make your life miserable.
eBay is likely to choose the 'economic' path, not the 'ethical' one. I hope you don't get too embroiled in something that will cost you!
It's a good fight you are fighting, but I expect eBay to fight dirty as there is money at stake.
If you actually get far enough to really threaten them, expect to see some serious roadblocks thrown up.
I would like nothing else than the 'jinghuashei' crime organization to be destroyed. However, it seems to be a cultural and economic thing (as far as cheap knockoff crap goes) and it seems to occur with the support or at least tacit approval of the chinese government. I think that the most effective way to deal with a chinese crime organization is to get the chinese government on their trail. However, I honestly don't know what steps one could take to achieve that goal. An American public outcry that affects the entire international trade business might be enough. Personally, I am taking steps to avoid anything made in China. I am willing to pay more for products made locally. I wish that the big retailers such as Walmart, Target, (everyone, really) would stop it with the "race-to-the-bottom" price pressure and help out with this problem rather than exacerbate it. The race-to-the-bottom causes stuff like Melamine in the food supply. Fortunately, with an emphasis on quality and local production we know this can be turned around from experience; it was done fleetingly a few decades ago.
All Chinese coins sold on Ebay DO NOT have the replica stamp on them. Why the big surprise?
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Frank good job and thanks for the heads up. Be very careful my friend.
Frank for President !
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>Warning.
You are attempting to interfere with a big stream of cash going into eBay.
They have lawyers that can make your life miserable.
eBay is likely to choose the 'economic' path, not the 'ethical' one. I hope you don't get too embroiled in something that will cost you!
It's a good fight you are fighting, but I expect eBay to fight dirty as there is money at stake.
If you actually get far enough to really threaten them, expect to see some serious roadblocks thrown up.
I would like nothing else than the 'jinghuashei' crime organization to be destroyed. However, it seems to be a cultural and economic thing (as far as cheap knockoff crap goes) and it seems to occur with the support or at least tacit approval of the chinese government. I think that the most effective way to deal with a chinese crime organization is to get the chinese government on their trail. However, I honestly don't know what steps one could take to achieve that goal. An American public outcry that affects the entire international trade business might be enough. Personally, I am taking steps to avoid anything made in China. I am willing to pay more for products made locally. I wish that the big retailers such as Walmart, Target, (everyone, really) would stop it with the "race-to-the-bottom" price pressure and help out with this problem rather than exacerbate it. The race-to-the-bottom causes stuff like Melamine in the food supply. Fortunately, with an emphasis on quality and local production we know this can be turned around from experience; it was done fleetingly a few decades ago. >>
BUY AMERICAN!! LOOK FOR MADE IN USA!
Continue to fight the good fight Frank!
The only way I could even imagine to get the Chinese Government to nip this practice in the bud is through Diplomatic Channels but that's nearly impossible unless some high dollar crime occurs! $59 a coin isn;t high enough IMO.
How about involving the ANA or at least talking with their legal department about how best to proceed given the results of your purchases?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Me Chinese Me play joke me go p p in your coke.
Frank good job and thanks for the heads up. Be very careful my friend.
What does the first line have anything to do with counterfeit coins? How is "me Chinese me play joke me go p p in your coke" relevant to Frankcoins's dilemma? Right, this statement comes from the same clown who was recently worried that solely minorities were preoccupied with stealing his coins. Oh yeah, I think my English skills are more than adequate and I don't shriek my words when I talk.
In regards to the original post, it is difficult and time-consuming to argue with EBay over issues like these although your position may be indisuptably correct. In the meantime the best defense is to learn how to grade and know how to spot counterfeit coins.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
My Odds&Ends eBay Stuff to fuel my coin habit (No Coins)
<< <i>Am I right that isolating eBay search options to show me items from: "US Only" would leave most of these fakes off my search results? I'm asking for my own knowledge, understand that what Frank is doing protects that people that might not like to isolate, or don't know to, their searches. >>
Only some of the fake chinese coins will be eliminated.
There are now Chinese sellers in the US who import and resell these coins specifically to avoid this very issue. Or perhaps they are unethical sellers of any nationality importing and reselling Chinese fakes. There are certainly instances of folks in America with business ties to the organized counterfeitter criminals in China.
Your best personal defense is to identify the range of products counterfeitted and distrust any and all sellers who have such a spectrum of products. It takes some research.
eBay's solution of introducing a 'Replica' subcategory is pathetic.
Loose lips sink ships Frank.... Nothing is going to stop the Chinese from selling fakes.
Way to much money involved.. And if you think the Chinese goverment isn't on the "take"
you had better think again....
On the surface they may bring down a few "sellers". But behind closed doors they have their
hand in the pot as well...
And with the amount of U.S debt they are buying. Don't even think about the Secret Service getting
seriously involved...
They have your address Franky......
If the post office thinks the coin is real, maybe you should get the US Coast Guard involved. As I recall from a couple other threads from a while back, they have a grading service now.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>I really don't see the combined intellects of eBay and the post office.... >>
I am glad someone is taking them on but $$ will rule in the end.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
The coin cummunity as a whole needs to look in the mirror at themselves.
Maybe the old B&M shop may have some substance to them?
EBAY will do nothing to mess-up their RICO-Enterprise; they cannot afford to.
Enough complaints filed with the FTC might, eventually, spur an "investigation."
If a consumer is tricked into buying a fake, the BBB in San Jose, CA will pursue
the complaint with PayPal, and PP will make a "courtesy refund."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////
RULES AND REGULATIONS FOR NUMISMATICS UNDER THE HOBBY PROTECTION ACT.
304.1 Terms defined.
304.2 General requirements.
304.3 Applicability.
304.4 Application of other law and regulations.
304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.
Authority: 15 U.S.C. 2101 et seq.
Source: 40 FR 5496, Feb. 6, 1975, unless otherwise noted.
304.1 Terms defined.
(a) Act means the Hobby Protection Act (approved November 29, 1973; Pub. L. 93 - 167, 87 Stat. 686, (15 U.S.C. 2101 et seq.)).
(b) Commerce has the same meanings as such term has under the Federal Trade Commission Act.
(c) Commission means the Federal Trade Commission.
(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government.
(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.
(h) Person means any individual, group, association, partnership, or any other business entity.
(i) Regulations means any or all regulations prescribed by the Federal Trade Commission pursuant to the Act.
(j) United States means the States, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.
(k) Diameter of a reproduction means the length of the longest possible straight line connecting two points on the perimeter of the reproduction.
[40 FR 5496, Feb. 6, 1975, as amended at 53 FR 38942, Oct. 4, 1988]
304.2 General requirement.
Imitation numismatic items subject to the Act shall be marked in conformity with the requirements of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder. Any violation of these regulations shall constitute a violation of the Act and of the Federal Trade Commission Act.
304.3 Applicability.
Any person engaged in the manufacturing, or importation into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, of imitation numismatic items shall be subject to the requirements of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder.
304.4 Application of other law or regulation.
The provisions of these regulations are in addition to, and not in substitution for or limitation of, the provisions of any other law or regulation of the United States (including the existing statutes and regulations prohibiting the reproduction of genuine currency) or of the law or regulation of any State.
304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.
(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked ``COPY''.
(b) The word ``COPY'' shall be marked upon the item legibly, conspicuously, and nondeceptively, and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.
(1) The word ``COPY'' shall appear in capital letters, in the English language.
(2) The word ``COPY'' shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.
(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be incused with the word ``COPY'' in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum depth of three-tenths of one millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (1/2) the thickness of the reproduction, whichever is the lesser. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word ``COPY'' shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material shall be imprinted with the word ``COPY'' in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word ``COPY'' shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.
[40 FR 5496, Feb. 6, 1975, as amended at 53 FR 38942, Oct. 4, 1988]
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This is the reply I sent to their letter, CC:ed to the entire ANA board, Editors of Coin World and Numismatic News, the Dallas Secret Service office, the "Coin Community Forum" on ebay, John Donahoe, the president of Live World, (the company that moderates the eBay forums under contract,) and the United States Postal Inspector. (Wonder how long I will have my ebay account?)
----
Let me tell you something, Karen, when eBay allows Counterfeit US currency to be sent into the
USA from China, that undermines our economy, and is also a Federal crime. Virtually all non-collectors
will be fooled by these fakes, and resale of this material on Ebay, at mom and pop coin shops, pawns
shops, flea markets and small auctions is causing serious harm to the coin hobby in America.
If you and your people at eBay cannot understand the importance of stopping this criminal activity by
publicizing it I feel very sorry for you as good corporate citizens. We will be meeting
with the United States secret service about this next week. A copy of your letter notifying me that you have
taken down my post will also be given to them.
Frank Provasek
Board Member, Texas Coin Dealers Association
Fort Worth Coin Club, Inc. member and past president
American Numismatic Assoc member R149129
However, pandas are plentiful
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Ryan
<< <i>Warning.
You are attempting to interfere with a big stream of cash going into eBay. >>
And China
-Randy Newman
they may respect that angle a bit more. it's probably perceived at this point the way knockoff handbags and bootleg dvd's are at this point.