The MS-64 Grade
mike92694
Posts: 1,068
The MS-64 grade is a wonderful grade. It usually implies that the coin is nice, but lacking in something. My question is, what would make you buy (or not buy) an MS-64 coin?
For me, an MS64 coin must have good luster and a decent strike. Contact marks are okay as long as they are not obtrusive, and hairlines as long as they are not blatantly obvious.
For me, an MS64 coin must have good luster and a decent strike. Contact marks are okay as long as they are not obtrusive, and hairlines as long as they are not blatantly obvious.
0
Comments
I agree with doh's and shamika's comments. That's my answer.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
When you start getting higher in grade, you had better have some appreciation for what those few extra points are actually buying you.
The name is LEE!
Let me revise my previous answer a bit. I like MS64 and high end MS63's on larger sized coins such as Morgans/Walkers for look & value. Lower MS tends to be slightly distracting a bit on these sized coins. For smaller coins, lower MS doesn't bother me as much in hand.....only when viewed under a high power glass is when it gets ugly.
-wes
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
that has a wide range of quality. From an astonishing
almost gem beauty to a fugly marginal specimen. Another
grade with the same characteristics is the AU-58 grade.
Camelot
For "modern crap" though, I need at least a 65 to be happy.
For the average collector, the 64/65 jump is about that last one that makes any discernable difference in quality. Once you get into the stratosphere, the escalating prices don't add much to the quality of the coin.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
The things that make me buy an MS64 coin:
-Eye Appeal
-Luster
-Even Toning
-Perceivable MS65+ looks with difficult to perceive MS64 nicks / marks.
The things that make me not buy an MS64 coin:
-Spots
-Splotchy/uneven color
-Excessive carbon
-Obvious fingerprints
-The presence of a visually and technically superior MS65+ coin sitting right next to it.
Empty Nest Collection
Im with you.
What would stop me from buying the coin ? Any defect in the central points of focus, if a defect doesnt draw my eyes, I'll buy it.
Ken
OTOH, if the coin is copper and is a 4 because spotting, I pass (lesson learned).
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Afew years ago I needed an Hawaiian commem to finish my set. A 64 was about $3000 and a 65 was about $5000. My dealer friend advised me to go with the 64 because for $2000 more, I wouldn`t be picking up that much in eye appeal. Other 64`s I have are the Missouri, Sesqui, Monroe and Isabella Quarter. I saved alot of money and lost very little in eye appeal! >>
This is precisely the kind of collector strategy that Q. David Bowers has advocated in his recent books.
Fortunately, most collectors accept light fingerprints or partial prints on coins graded below MS-65. If others are repulsed by them, that means more opportunities for collectors like me. The severity and location of the print would influence my buying decision. The fingerprint argument becomes increasingly silly when one realizes that the rubbing of a finger on a coin can create a wide arrange of acceptable toning effects. Since it doesn't show the "dreaded" print pattern, people happily call it "natural toning." MS-64s often have prints and I can usually live with them. It is absurd to dismiss an MS-63, for example with a light fingerprint.
But, to each his own.
Strike doesn't necessarily affect the grade. you can easily fine weakly struck 65s and hammered 64s.
There isn't a huge price jump from 64 to 65 in most large cents. the jump is often 65 to 66. The term "gem" doesn't seem to excite copper guys.
--Jerry
Usually chatter on the cheek for a 64 is minimal enough to not be too distracting.
Luster can be subdued or blazing at 64.
Strike is tricky (from mushy to hammered) because so much depends upon the mint. A blazing, well struck, early S-minted dollar can have some hits in the fields & cheek & still be a 64.
A mushy, poorly struck O-minted dollar with minimal chatter can also 64.
So much depends upon so many different factors, finding a nice 64 becomes a fun challenge...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
to 65s for the most part. i detest 64 for the value you get with half
eagles. if i could afford 64s... i could surely save a bit more and get
a 65 and be happier if that was my thing.
<< <i>The MS-64 grade is a wonderful grade. It usually implies that the coin is nice, but lacking in something. My question is, what would make you buy (or not buy) an MS-64 coin?
For me, an MS64 coin must have good luster and a decent strike. Contact marks are okay as long as they are not obtrusive, and hairlines as long as they are not blatantly obvious. >>
Agreed.
The trick with the MS 64 grade is to figure out how to balance the variables of luster, eye appeal, strike, and degree of contact marks. This can be quite easy in the rare example when all variables are in line at the 64 level; however, the world isn't perfect, and this is most often not the case. Usually one of the four is higher, one or two are about 64, and one is lower. For example, the luster might be an average 64, the eye appeal 65, the strike 63, and the contact marks 64.
This example however, is a bit simplistic for several reasons. First, I personally find the luster difficult to quantify, especially relative to toned vs. untoned specimens. I personaly don't like dipped out coins, but they have an inherently more attractive luster ( if done right) than heavily toned specimens where the luster tends to be muted by the toning. Second, coins are more commonly scattered in terms of their spread across spectrum.
Let me explain.
Let's give every grade 3 levels--strong, average and weak. What i mean is, how do you grade a coin with appeal 63 average, luster 64 weak, strike 63 strong and contact 64 strong. Is it a weak 64? a strong 63?. What about an appeal 65 weak, luster 63 strong, strike 64 weak, and contact 63 average. Will the appeal lift it into the 64 range?
My point is that 64 can represent a variety of combinations, i.e., not all 64's are the same. Or to put another way, in any large group there will be a spread of whatever you are measuring, i.e.-- a typical large freshman class in college may have 500 students, with a bell curve distribution of grades. So how to balance them out?
My own preference is to emphasize/give more weight to the overall eye appeal and toning, and a little less to the strike (I collect CBH's so I'm often forced into this position) and luster with the value of contact marks somewhere in between. You've got to be a little forgiving somewhere with 64, otherwise it would be a 65. On the other hand, a 64 should be an extremely stong piece.
Bottom line: it's got to look good, and have a paucity of bagmarks. I won't buy it just because it makes a "techinical" 64. I've got to WANT it, otherwise I won't lay out 64 money.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about...
Hope my talking this out helps your own thinking on this issue...
<< <i>So, to answer the original question:
The things that make me buy an MS64 coin:
-Eye Appeal
-Luster
-Even Toning
-Perceivable MS65+ looks with difficult to perceive MS64 nicks / marks.
The things that make me not buy an MS64 coin:
-Spots
-Splotchy/uneven color
-Excessive carbon
-Obvious fingerprints
-The presence of a visually and technically superior MS65+ coin sitting right next to it. >>
These MS64's are not really that easy to find if they have an upshot to MS65 because the price does goes up and the market may get a bit more difficult to buy or sell depending on the coin and series.
They can be found but I wouldn't settle for anything with less than a full relief strike. Marks in the focal areas may not be helped but with some nice luster and toning, your buck can go along way.
And considering how erroroneously some coins have been graded, that coin can surpass others residing in higher MS labeled holders. So does a MS65 graded coin neccesarily mean that it's a better coin than one in a MS64 holder or vise-versus?....Not always! So I don't understand everyones position that they would prefer one grade over another except for the price but aren't we really buying the coin and not the holder?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>i sure hope this doesn't end up being one of those stupid AU58-MS62 type threads....................... >>
And if it does, you certainly have the right to ignore the thread.
<< <i>My question is, what would make you buy (or not buy) an MS-64 coin?
For me, an MS64 coin must have good luster and a decent strike. Contact marks are okay as long as they are not obtrusive, and hairlines as long as they are not blatantly obvious. >>
Asked and answered.
More broadly, for me to buy any coin (64s included) the coin has to appeal to my eye. It is just that simple....Mike
<< <i>The MS-64 grade is a wonderful grade. It usually implies that the coin is nice, but lacking in something. My question is, what would make you buy (or not buy) an MS-64 coin?
For me, an MS64 coin must have good luster and a decent strike. Contact marks are okay as long as they are not obtrusive, and hairlines as long as they are not blatantly obvious. >>
A 64 with a decent strike is called a 65 or 66.
<< <i>The MS-64 grade is a wonderful grade. It usually implies that the coin is nice, but lacking in something. My question is, what would make you buy (or not buy) an MS-64 coin?
>>
the main reason,
cost
a 65 would be 2.5x the cost
otherwise, most of us would prefer a 65, I think.
<< <i>The fingerprint argument becomes increasingly silly when one realizes that the rubbing of a finger on a coin can create a wide arrange of acceptable toning effects. Since it doesn't show the "dreaded" print pattern, people happily call it "natural toning." >>
I don't think anyone would argue that skin oils are not a source of toning. There are a ton of Franklin Halves that demonstrate this quite well. However, when the print pattern is visible, it becomes a distraction that causes many collectors (myself included) to continue the search.
<< <i>
<< <i>The fingerprint argument becomes increasingly silly when one realizes that the rubbing of a finger on a coin can create a wide arrange of acceptable toning effects. Since it doesn't show the "dreaded" print pattern, people happily call it "natural toning." >>
I don't think anyone would argue that skin oils are not a source of toning. There are a ton of Franklin Halves that demonstrate this quite well. However, when the print pattern is visible, it becomes a distraction that causes many collectors (myself included) to continue the search. >>
I agree, but my point is in regard to the severity and location of the print. Coins with digs or scratches are distractions well, and I might consider a scrape on Liberty's face to be far more distracting than a two dimensional fingerprint pattern. I am also taking into account the grade in question. Light fingerprints at the MS-64 level are acceptable, in my opinion. On the other hand, severe marks, unsightly discoloration and heavy fingerprints are off limits from 65 and up.
When it comes to marks, fingerprints, etc., "it depends" is my usual response.
then some 66's were gift graded 65's
so to me 64 to 66 is merely a graders call away
coins have enough technical warrant at 64 for their price and only in certain cases will i stray above that
i'm not rich and always bear that in mind