No one is impressed with coin dealers more than me, but is grading a genetic trait, and more likely
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
I was reading the most recent Doug Winter blog, which I pasted below. Now let me state one thing-- no one is more impressed and amazed with coin dealers than Longacre. In the blog below, the author references brain surgery, anatomy, and reading x-rays, which I think is a far, far easier task than grading coins, which is the subject of the blog. I also highlighted in bold a comment that grading is thought to be a genetic trait. I have not given this much thought, but it would not surprise me that coin dealers have this genetic trait more often than common humans, particularly given their stature in society. I am no doctor or statistician, but the odds of having all of these genetically superior dealers in one place at a coin show must be mind boggling.
Other than talking about genetics, what do you think about the grading comments below? I think the blog is interesting, genetics aside.
**********************
September 25, 2008
Many articles about coin collecting (including more than a few written by yours truly) have suggested that it is extremely important for collectors to learn how to grade. In theory, this makes sense. But is this realistic? Can a person with a family, a job and interests besides coins realistically learn how to grade coins?
I think that the “learn how to grade” advice that I mentioned above is fine, at least in theory. However, is this really any different than a doctor suggesting that in order to better care for myself that I learn brain surgery, anatomy and how to read X-rays in my spare time? I’m obviously not about to become an expert in any of these fields and I wonder if it is unrealistic for me—a professional coin dealer—to suggest that a collector become an expert grader.
I think there is really only one way to become good at grading coins. You have to look at thousands and thousands of coins in person. And then you have to buy and sell coins so that you have the confidence to determine that your skill level is there.
But even if you look at thousands of coins in person, if you do not have innate grading abilities, it probably does not matter. I know a number of dealers who have been viewing coins for years and years and I still don’t think they have a clue how to grade because they just don’t have a good eye. As I’ve written before, I think the ability to grade a coin is genetic. Either you have the ability to do it written into your genetic code or you don’t.
That said, is there a way that the collector can acquire grading skills that make buying coins a safer and more pleasurable experience? I think the answer is a resounding “yes” and I have some suggestions:
1. As I said above, there is no substitute for viewing coins in person. I think the best way to do this is to attend a major auction (especially the FUN or ANA sales) and spend a full day viewing as many coins as you can. It’s important to remember that as you are learning how to grade that you need a base line to compare coins. And it is also important to remember that you need to grade according to PCGS and NGC standards. Looking at coins that are already in slabs and which run the gamut from very low end to very high end is a great way to hone your skills.
2. For the basics in grading, taking the ANA grading class is a pretty unbeatable experience. The instructors at these classes are highly skilled professionals and the chance to work with experienced dealers or professional graders is pretty unique in this hobby. If you have a week to spare, I highly recommend this class. And if you have already taken the beginning class, the advanced class is even better. (For more information on the ANA grading classes, visit their website at www.money.org)
3. Any collector who decides that he is going to learn to grade a wide range of coin types or series in a short period of time is probably being unrealistic. I have always suggested becoming a specialist and one of the main reasons why is that a specialist has fewer things to learn about grading than a generalist. As an example, if you make the decision to collect New Orleans gold, it is not unrealistic to think that you can become a reasonably competent grader in a few years time. But if you decide to collect, say, all early gold coins produced from 1795 through 1834, there is an awful lot to learn and you are likely to have a number of gaps in your ability.
4. As you learn to grade, be less focused on numbers (i.e. MS63 versus MS64) and more focused on learning what constitutes eye appeal and quality in a specific series. I believe that most collectors are too focused on micro-grading and are not focused enough on the big picture.
5. In many cases, the most important thing a collector can do is to establish a good relationship with one or two dealers to help them buy nice coins, establish grading and eye appeal standards for a set (or sets) and to help make them better and less impulsive coin buyers. I will be the first to admit that not every collector needs a dealer’s guidance. If you collect ultra modern issues, you can most certainly go it alone and I know some other collectors who have built lovely collections pretty much on a solo basis.
Let me give you an example of a collector/dealer partnership that over the course of many years has been highly successful. Dr. Steve Duckor (who is probably just about the most competent collector of American coins that I have ever met) was very fortunate early in his collecting career to meet and become a customer of David Akers; a dealer who I think has a rare and exceptional combination of ability and integrity. Together, these two individuals worked on a number of collections that have proven to be marvelous in terms of quality and scope. It’s truly been a win-win relationship for both individuals. And it’s exactly the sort of business relationship that I’d encourage you, as a collector (although with me, not David!), to aspire towards.
If you aspire to become a competent grader I commend you and hope this article will spur your interest and enthusiasm. Just remember that grading skills take a lifetime to develop and refine (I’ve been doing this professionally for over a quarter of a century and am still humbled at what I, from time to time, need to learn...)
Do you have questions about how to grade United States coins? If so please feel free to contact me at dwn@ont.com.
Doug Winter
9/25/08
www.raregoldcoins.com
Do you have questions about how to grade United States coins? If so please feel free to contact me atdwn@ont.com.
Other than talking about genetics, what do you think about the grading comments below? I think the blog is interesting, genetics aside.
**********************
September 25, 2008
Many articles about coin collecting (including more than a few written by yours truly) have suggested that it is extremely important for collectors to learn how to grade. In theory, this makes sense. But is this realistic? Can a person with a family, a job and interests besides coins realistically learn how to grade coins?
I think that the “learn how to grade” advice that I mentioned above is fine, at least in theory. However, is this really any different than a doctor suggesting that in order to better care for myself that I learn brain surgery, anatomy and how to read X-rays in my spare time? I’m obviously not about to become an expert in any of these fields and I wonder if it is unrealistic for me—a professional coin dealer—to suggest that a collector become an expert grader.
I think there is really only one way to become good at grading coins. You have to look at thousands and thousands of coins in person. And then you have to buy and sell coins so that you have the confidence to determine that your skill level is there.
But even if you look at thousands of coins in person, if you do not have innate grading abilities, it probably does not matter. I know a number of dealers who have been viewing coins for years and years and I still don’t think they have a clue how to grade because they just don’t have a good eye. As I’ve written before, I think the ability to grade a coin is genetic. Either you have the ability to do it written into your genetic code or you don’t.
That said, is there a way that the collector can acquire grading skills that make buying coins a safer and more pleasurable experience? I think the answer is a resounding “yes” and I have some suggestions:
1. As I said above, there is no substitute for viewing coins in person. I think the best way to do this is to attend a major auction (especially the FUN or ANA sales) and spend a full day viewing as many coins as you can. It’s important to remember that as you are learning how to grade that you need a base line to compare coins. And it is also important to remember that you need to grade according to PCGS and NGC standards. Looking at coins that are already in slabs and which run the gamut from very low end to very high end is a great way to hone your skills.
2. For the basics in grading, taking the ANA grading class is a pretty unbeatable experience. The instructors at these classes are highly skilled professionals and the chance to work with experienced dealers or professional graders is pretty unique in this hobby. If you have a week to spare, I highly recommend this class. And if you have already taken the beginning class, the advanced class is even better. (For more information on the ANA grading classes, visit their website at www.money.org)
3. Any collector who decides that he is going to learn to grade a wide range of coin types or series in a short period of time is probably being unrealistic. I have always suggested becoming a specialist and one of the main reasons why is that a specialist has fewer things to learn about grading than a generalist. As an example, if you make the decision to collect New Orleans gold, it is not unrealistic to think that you can become a reasonably competent grader in a few years time. But if you decide to collect, say, all early gold coins produced from 1795 through 1834, there is an awful lot to learn and you are likely to have a number of gaps in your ability.
4. As you learn to grade, be less focused on numbers (i.e. MS63 versus MS64) and more focused on learning what constitutes eye appeal and quality in a specific series. I believe that most collectors are too focused on micro-grading and are not focused enough on the big picture.
5. In many cases, the most important thing a collector can do is to establish a good relationship with one or two dealers to help them buy nice coins, establish grading and eye appeal standards for a set (or sets) and to help make them better and less impulsive coin buyers. I will be the first to admit that not every collector needs a dealer’s guidance. If you collect ultra modern issues, you can most certainly go it alone and I know some other collectors who have built lovely collections pretty much on a solo basis.
Let me give you an example of a collector/dealer partnership that over the course of many years has been highly successful. Dr. Steve Duckor (who is probably just about the most competent collector of American coins that I have ever met) was very fortunate early in his collecting career to meet and become a customer of David Akers; a dealer who I think has a rare and exceptional combination of ability and integrity. Together, these two individuals worked on a number of collections that have proven to be marvelous in terms of quality and scope. It’s truly been a win-win relationship for both individuals. And it’s exactly the sort of business relationship that I’d encourage you, as a collector (although with me, not David!), to aspire towards.
If you aspire to become a competent grader I commend you and hope this article will spur your interest and enthusiasm. Just remember that grading skills take a lifetime to develop and refine (I’ve been doing this professionally for over a quarter of a century and am still humbled at what I, from time to time, need to learn...)
Do you have questions about how to grade United States coins? If so please feel free to contact me at dwn@ont.com.
Doug Winter
9/25/08
www.raregoldcoins.com
Do you have questions about how to grade United States coins? If so please feel free to contact me atdwn@ont.com.
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
Genetically predisposed to coin grading?
Not a chance.
The name is LEE!
But to suggest that grading ability is innate or genetic in any way is not correct, IMO.
If you take the time (and it might take a LONG time) and you look at a lot of coins very carefully (and I mean tens of thousands, for just a start) then you too can become an excellent grader.
The dealers' advantage (if you can call it that) is they get lots of market feedback on their grading decisions.
You buy a coin that you think is an MS64. NO! The market says that slight wipe on the reverse means it is a no grade.
You don't think that rim nick is that bad. NO! The market says that is actually damage, not a rim nick.
You think that toning is kinda pretty. NO! The market says it is too mottled, and actually deserves a discount, not a premium.
You get kicked in the head (and, of course, the pocketbook) enough times, you definitely will learn to be a better grader. You need the serious interest, the determination, the time, and the decent eyesight.
And be willing to lose money, and to learn from your mistakes.
Edited to be more PC.
Coin Rarities Online
So you either see details or you don't. Those who do are much likely to be good graders, and much more likely to collect coins.
--Jerry
The same may be true for grading. I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Ken
Let me use the analogy of something less controversial such as singing. A natural talent will have a huge leg up over an average person. With training and practice that can be honed further. I believe it is similar for coin grading. Talent gets a person far up the ladder, and training plus practice can only close the gap so much. Every potential singer can benefit from voice training, just as every collector will benefit from grading books, seminars and classes, but I believe that the natural talent gap can be large enough in some cases that it can not be closed.
Some people might have the opposite of what it takes to be a good coin grader. Poor eyesight is the obvious non-starter, especially if far sighted (like I am). The other factors such as a wavering mind that can not decide and can not focus, or remember much, can be almost as bad.
<< <i>Keeping with the PCGS Message Board Code of Ethics™, let's try to not mock the author personally, but rather stick to discussing the merits of the ideas in the blog.
Longacre, If you're talking about my post, I was serious. If you thought it sounded like you, then perhaps I don't have a good mental image of myself.
Regarding the intuition comment above (FatMan), I recommend the book "Blink". The main thesis of the book is that experts who have done something over and over again (like looking at thousands of coins) can distill their experience into key things that they look for, sometimes not even consciously, and can make quick decisions (like grading a coin in 7 seconds) that are better and more consistent than if they, or a less trained person, spent hours or even days studying. Although the description below calls it intuition, author Malcolm Gladwell coined the phrase "thin slicing" to describe this quick decision making based on limited information.
Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking is a 2005 book by Malcolm Gladwell, in which he explores the power of the trained mind to make split second decisions, the ability to think without thinking, or in other words using intuition.
<< <i>Did you know that if you write a boring, non-controversial blog on a website that no one will read it or link it in here? >>
Baloney! Next time you write one, I promise to link it here.
How do you get rid of them with a dead cat? "Why, you take your cat and go and get in the graveyard 'long about midnight when somebody that was wicked has been buried; and when it's midnight a devil will come, or maybe two or three, but you can't see 'em, you can only hear something like the wind, or maybe hear 'em talk; and when they're taking that feller away, you heave your cat after 'em and say, 'Devil follow corpse, cat follow devil, warts follow cat, I'm done with ye!' That'll fetch any wart."
Seriously I think that the ability to observe and remember are 2 traits of folks who are good at grading that could be genetic (my daughter notices everything but my son does not...) but anyone, given enough time, patience, and concentration can develop these skills also. Dealers ahve a leg up on the general collecting community due the the fact that they spend (or should spend!) so much time looking at coins. There are dealers who are good and dealers who are not as good at grading and the same goes for collectors.
K
<< <i>
<< <i>Did you know that if you write a boring, non-controversial blog on a website that no one will read it or link it in here? >>
Baloney! Next time you write one, I promise to link it here.
Ouch! That's gotta hurt.
Hey, wait a minute. I sometimes write our blog too.... I resemble that remark!
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>Doing anything at an extremely high level requires a certain level of talent. hard work will get the first 90% but only talent will get you that last 10%. I could train all I want to be a basketball player and I could never be a good pro. The same applies to most avocations, the "greats" are born with it. >>
Well said. I'll even make that 99%. My son will definitely end up to be one of the best 1% of golfers in the US. That and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. We'll have to wait to see if he's got the talent to be a pro (his current career goal). I'm not letting him drop out of 3rd grade yet.
--Jerry
I actually think that grading is a lot like radiology. You must synthesize many observations, and come up with a conclusion. Both take some degree of training, experience, and continuing education to stay on top. Is it a planchet flaw or post-mint damage? Is it a benign granuloma or a cancer? The stakes are obviously quite a bit different, but the processing is quite similar.
I hope I am a better radiologist than a coin grader.
talent = skill = predisposition = affinity = natural ability
......it essentially comes from your genetic makeup. Whether you become world class or not depends on experience and your drive to succeed. Winter has not stated anything new that has not been discussed here in greater detail.
For my money, I've always felt those with a higher degree of talent in the physical sciences such as mathematics or engineering, tend to do better in grading. Many lawyers and doctors fit into this category as do your accountants, statisticians, etc. To grade, your mind needs to "calculate" many different variables and arrive at a "number." Of course like CRO stated, you must get the feedback from the market to prove or hone your grading standards. It does no good to have a repeatable grading standard which only applies to yourself, no matter how infallible it is.
In summary, to say that the slowest runner on your block when you were a kid was going to grow up to be Olympic champion in the 100m dash was a stretch. But the fastest runner on your block who blew everyone away when he was 3 years younger than everyone else was obviously predisposed for potential success. It's no different in coins. Some people just can't grade and never will. Some of them are very successfull 30 year dealers on the national show circuit. Some of them know they can't grade and compensate for it, others will never know, or don't care to know. There is always room for a successfull dealer who does well just based on their salesmanship than their technical skills. But the Lion's share of the numismatic $$ seems to go to those with great "eyes" and some basic business acumen.
Because grading has shifted more towards eye appeal alone in the past 10-15 years has opened up the field to a larger number of players who don't have or don't need the required technical skills to be successfull. But a caveat here. As this market makes its inevitable shift towards a bear cycle, those that buy slabs based on eye appeal with scant knowledge of the technical aspects, will be left by the wayside.
Just my gut feel that among the best graders in the business you will find a majority with an affinity for the physical sciences. I've never taken a survey so I could be wrong.
roadrunner