Shield Nickel with broken letters - is this common?

norwegianguy · May 2, 2008 2:13AM

Hello from Norway, Europe.

I've been following the forum a couple of weeks now, and have decided that this is probably the best place to find expertise on my US coins.

I guess I have a few handfuls of cool coins with varieties or attractive grades. Many of the varieties are not listed in my Krause's World Coins, so perhaps I can turn to you...

First off, I will start with a Shield Nickel, 1870. On the reverse side, there are broken letters all around (see pictures). Actually, I have another one (from 1872) with a broken S in CENTS. But on the 1870 coin I count nothing less than 7 broken letters.

So... is this a well-known variety?

(The shadow over the year is just a plastic fold in the 2x2 holder.)

Coxe · May 2, 2008 2:18AM

It sure is not unheard of.

Here is a thread I did on such a coin (1868 date though) that you might find interesting. I'll look in Fletcher and Perters & Mohon to see if ther eis a match for your coin. Howard might show up with his expertise too.

cmerlo1 · May 2, 2008 2:26AM

options26 · May 2, 2008 2:30AM

Welcome to the forum.

291fifth · May 2, 2008 2:30AM

It's very common on Shield Nickels.

charley · May 2, 2008 3:00AM

Welcome, norwegianguy. Now if you can just send norwegiangirls....Respectfully, John Curlis(Broadstruck, your up..)

IGWT · May 2, 2008 3:44AM

Broken letters are common, especially so for 1870, and don't carry any premium. Remember that the breaks reflect deterioration of working hubs, not dies, so it's likely that more than one die carries the same defects (unless letters broke with each hubbing of successive dies).

howards · May 2, 2008 7:43AM

What IGWT said.

These broken letters even occur on proof shield nickels.!

Sunnywood · May 2, 2008 8:30AM

As shield nickel experts, both IGWT and howards know that the broken letters on certain shield nickel reverses, particularly in 1868 and 1870, are an interesting and integral part of the shield nickel story.

In 1868 the Mint created a new reverse hub to improve the striking of the stars. The new hub had smaller crisper stars designed to strike up better than the large puffy stars of the 1867 hub. The shield nickels of 1868 struck with dies made from the "Reverse of 1868" hub normally exhibit broken letters. That is because the new hub was evidently brittle, and its raised letters broke off as working reverse dies were made from it. In fact, 1868 Rev. '68 nickel with NO broken letters are quite rare. After the hub suffered more and more broken letters, it was retired from service, and the Mint went back to make working reverse dies from the earlier "Reverse of 1867" hub.

In 1870, the Mint tried again and created a new reverse hub, which we call the "Reverse of 1870" hub. Like the 1868 hub, this one has smaller, crisper stars. Again in 1870, just as in 1868, we begin to see a progression of broken letters on the reverse dies. 1870 nickels are known with as many as six broken letters. However, if we look at 1871 nickels, we find them with no broken letters, yet "miraculously" with the SAME "Reverse of 1870" hub design.

How is this possible? Because the Mint learned from its troubles in 1868. In that year, the working dies (with incuse letters) were made directly from the hub (with its raised that that broke off). Once the hub was damaged, there was no choice but to make a new one. In order to avoid a repeat of this situation, it is my theory that the Mint switched from a two tier system (master hub - working die) to a four-tier system (master hub - working hub - master die - working die). In the four-tier system, the master hub and master die have raised letters, while the working hub and working die have incuse letters. So in 1870, when the letters broke in the process of making working dies, the broken letters were on the master die. But the master hub and working hub were NOT affected !! All the Mint had to do was create a new master die from the same master hub & working hub.

The fact that the 1868 hub was retired after the letters broke, while the 1870 hub could continue to be used by making a new master die, shows how the Mint learned from its experience, and made its manufacturing process more sophisticated.

Incidentally, at the beginning of the shield series, there were three unique dies made directly from hand-made masters - one obverse, one With Rays reverse, and one No Rays reverse. These are all distinguished by a raised center dot - the reverse impression of an incuse center dot on the hubs made by a compass point. A compass was undoubtedly used to lay out the position of the lettering. A similar raised dot can be found on many large cents, for example. So in the shield nickels, we see the Mint evolving from hand-made unique dies, to a two-tiered hub & die system, and then to a four-tiered system as described above.

While your 1870 nickel with broken letters may not carry a premium, it does have great historical interest to students of the series.

Best,
Sunnywood

DorkGirl · May 2, 2008 9:19AM

First let me say that it feels quite strange to have someone use Krause for US coins

Next I want to thank Sunnywood for the educational post, very nice.

EagleEye · May 2, 2008 11:40AM

How is this possible? Because the Mint learned from its troubles in 1868. In that year, the working dies (with incuse letters) were made directly from the hub (with its raised that that broke off). Once the hub was damaged, there was no choice but to make a new one. In order to avoid a repeat of this situation, it is my theory that the Mint switched from a two tier system (master hub - working die) to a four-tier system (master hub - working hub - master die - working die). In the four-tier system, the master hub and master die have raised letters, while the working hub and working die have incuse letters. So in 1870, when the letters broke in the process of making working dies, the broken letters were on the master die. But the master hub and working hub were NOT affected !! All the Mint had to do was create a new master die from the same master hub & working hub.

Excellent post, Sunnywood except that hubs are always raised and dies are always sunk by definition. Multiple hubs were likely made and if one got damaged another one was used. This would account for later dies not showing earlier hub defects.

Raybo · May 2, 2008 11:56AM

<< Welcome, norwegianguy. Now if you can just send norwegiangirls....Respectfully, John Curlis(Broadstruck, your up..) >>

Ray

IGWT · May 2, 2008 12:01PM

Excellent post, Sunnywood except that hubs are always raised and dies are always sunk by definition. Multiple hubs were likely made and if one got damaged another one was used. This would account for later dies not showing earlier hub defects.

I think that the your exception to Sunnywood's post is a matter of a difference in terminology. Mint records of this era often, if not always, refer to hubs as dies. In today's terminology, we describe the sequence of production as master hub --> master die --> working hub --> working die. So, while Sunnywood writes of "broken letters . . . on the master die," I'm quite sure (based on other conversations with him) that he is referring to working hubs.

Sunnywood · May 2, 2008 12:09PM

Ah, thanks Lou and Rick; yes this is just a matter of terminology. It makes much more sense indeed to use the current convention, alternating the terms "hub" and "die" in the sequence as Lou has it:

master hub --> master die --> working hub --> working die

so that then the "hubs" are then those with raised letters, and "dies" those with incuse letters as Rick points out (unless of course you're striking Bela Pratt's Indian gold !!).

Otherwise, my points remain unchanged !!

Best,
Sunnywood

norwegianguy · May 2, 2008 2:06PM

Thanks again for your thoughts. It's very educational. I don't have much litterature on US coins, so yes... I use Krause.

Even though it's common, I still think it is cool with so many errors on the same coin. It actually has a rotated die, too.

Sunnywood said:

<< .... 1870 nickels are known with as many as six broken letters.... >>

Funny... if I count the broken letters on my 1870 Nickel, I get at least 7 of them...:
United states of America. Cents.
(You can see them all on the pictures)

howards · May 2, 2008 4:50PM

Significantly rotated dies (say about 90 degrees or more) are quite scarce in the shield nickel series, and unlike the broken letters I'd be happy to pay a (small) premium for a rotated die.

Small amounts of rotation, however, are common.

How far are your dies rotated?

howards · May 2, 2008 4:51PM

Working solely from memory, I think 9 broken letters on a shield nickel reverse is the most I've seen. It was probably on an 1870.

But my memory can't be trusted.

norwegianguy · May 2, 2008 5:05PM

<< Small amounts of rotation, however, are common.

How far are your dies rotated? >>

The dies are only rotated 20-30 degrees, so I guess it is quite common then

Sunnywood · May 3, 2008 12:06AM

There were definitely more broken letters on the 1870 than any other issue including the 1868 Rev. '68. My comment was based on my own notes from my (former) collection, which included several 1870's showing a progression from one to six broken letters. However, I don't doubt that there could be more !!

Nine broken letters is pretty amazing Howard, that one would be worth keeping and imaging !!

Best,
Sunnywood

howards · May 3, 2008 7:40AM

Here's an 1870 with nine broken letters:

1870 Broken Letters

1. top left serif of E (UNITED)
2. top crossbar of D (UNITED)
3. top crossbar of S (first S STATES)
4. left vertical of A (STATES)
5. top crossbar of S (second S STATES)
6. top crossbar of F (OF)
7. top crossbar of R (AMERICA)
8. left vertical of A (second A AMERICA)
9. bottom crossbar S (CENTS)

norwegianguy · May 9, 2008 6:03AM

<< Here's an 1870 with nine broken letters: 1870 Broken Letters 1. top left serif of E (UNITED) 2. top crossbar of D (UNITED) 3. top crossbar of S (first S STATES) 4. left vertical of A (STATES) 5. top crossbar of S (second S STATES) 6. top crossbar of F (OF) 7. top crossbar of R (AMERICA) 8. left vertical of A (second A AMERICA) 9. bottom crossbar S (CENTS) >>

Hey... This is pretty cool !!!

When I compare my own coin with your coin (and your list), I realize that my coin also has 9 broken letters. (Not 7, as I thought when I posted the OP)

Furthermore, exactly the same 9 letters are broken. Seems to me that these two coins come from the same die...

Do you agree?

">

howards · May 9, 2008 8:10AM

Could be the exact same die, or it could just be different working dies that owe a common ancestry to the same working hub. Barring some fortuitous die crack evidence, there's really no way to know.

norwegianguy · May 9, 2008 5:01PM

Thanks a lot, Howard.

From your homepage, I understand that you are quite an expert on the subject of Shield Nickels.

Perhaps you could also help me with this one: Am I right to say that this is an overpunched 7?
In case... which variety # is it?

howards · May 9, 2008 5:18PM

Yes, it looks like you have a Repunched 7 south.

1867 is one of the years that has so many very similar RPDs that I would need several good, sharp photos to attempt an attribution. If you want to try it, I need full obverse, full reverse, a wide shot of the date, a tight shot of the date (similar to that which you provided, but clearer), and a photo of the upper right quadrant of the obverse.

I did take a quick look through my files and I didn't see an 1867 RPD that had a die crack that matches your coin. When you get a hit on a die crack it makes attribution easy, but just because I didn't get a hit doesn't mean it's a new variety (could just be a later die stage of a known variety).

mcheath · May 10, 2008 6:24AM

Wow this is one cool thread, great info here.

norwegianguy · May 10, 2008 8:15AM

Thanks again, Howard.

Here are some scans. They are the best ones I can get with my current equipment. Don't know if it will help, but thanks for looking anyway

>>

howards · May 10, 2008 9:01AM

There are a couple of RPDs in my files that are very close, but I don't think they are a match. Most likely you have an uncatalogued variety. This happens pretty often, especially with RPDs, as there are many uncatalogued varieties.

If you want me to list it, I'd need to borrow the coin for photography. If "norwegianguy" means you are based in Norway, then it's not going to be worth the trouble, but if you are in the US it's reasonable to do.

norwegianguy · May 10, 2008 9:13AM

<< If "norwegianguy" means you are based in Norway, then it's not going to be worth the trouble >>

Yes, I am based in Norway.

So I guess it's going to stay uncatalogued for a while, then. Pity.

sumnom · May 10, 2008 11:07AM

This is one of the best threads I have seen around here in a long time. Thank you all!

Shield Nickel with broken letters - is this common?

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