54-P Washington End Roll Toned

Leiana · November 25, 2006 8:18AM

This is my Dad's coin, but he asked me to image it for him.

The above image of the obverse is more for color, while the below image of the obverse is more for lustre.

The coin has a fairly decent strike and okay lustre, too. The eagle's tail feathers are nice and visible. I would grade this coin at a 65.

Just thought I would share.

-Amanda

GoldenEyeNumismatics · November 25, 2006 8:24AM

gorgeous!

TWQG · November 25, 2006 8:28AM

With the usual die cracks. Very nice!

NumisOxide · November 25, 2006 8:30AM

Neat cracked skull die crack.

Love the color on that one.

LindeDad · November 25, 2006 8:30AM

Is that a die crack in the top of Goerge's head or just a toning line?
Might make 66 in my eye.

Leiana · November 25, 2006 8:33AM

<< Is that a die crack in the top of Goerge's head or just a toning line?
Might make 66 in my eye. >>

There is one on George's head, one on the reverse from RIBUS to the Eagle's left wing and one on the eagle's right wing.

I love die cracks!

Thanks guys.

-Amanda

ChangeInHistory · November 25, 2006 8:55AM

The toning really 'halo's' nicely around the head and motto.

CarlWohlforth · November 25, 2006 9:00AM

Neat coin and very nice photos! Thanks for posting them.

kryptonitecomics · November 25, 2006 9:07AM

Nice coin....NT all the way

Bruceswar · November 25, 2006 9:09AM

If graded this qtr would get MS66

pharmer · November 25, 2006 9:12AM

I don't think the toning was ever in doubt. I agree, 66 and great images.

Leiana · November 25, 2006 9:28AM

66? Interesting.

I would think that the strike and the lustre, while good but not great, would keep it a 65. Or were you bumping for the color? The coin is remarkably free of hits, but I think it's a really nice 65.

Care to explain further?

Thanks.

-Amanda

JRocco · November 25, 2006 9:33AM

Hey Amanda, nice coin.

The toning looks really attractive on this one. I see a 65 max on this one. Could go 64 due to the strike, but would sell for 65+ money anyway, so the exact number on a piece like this is irrelevant.
Nice coin.

pharmer · November 25, 2006 9:36AM

<< Care to explain further? >>

Leiana · November 25, 2006 9:37AM

<< 

<< Care to explain further? >>

>>

As to why you called it a 66.

Basically, what leads to a 66 over a 65? Or am I splitting hairs here?

-Amanda

pharmer · November 25, 2006 9:49AM

This is odd. LindeDad said 66, but was not questioned. Why the special treatment?

I have submitted hundreds of mint set Washingtons to PCGS ONLY over many years. Why are you being confrontational? I was being complimentary.

<< Care to explain further? >>

Care to be more polite? I didn't appreciate your tone, young lady, it was disrespectful.

Color does not influence PCGS grades. If you believe that, you are wrong, it is a myth. The lack of any hits makes this a 66. Only you know what the luster looks like in hand.

TonedCoinTrader · November 25, 2006 9:52AM

Very Pretty EOR Washie!!!

Leiana · November 25, 2006 9:52AM

I'm sorry, Pharmer.

I didn't mean to sound rude.

I actually wasn't addressing the original question to anybody in particular, just the folks who said 66. There were several, so I just left the question open-ended.

I am interested in learning how to grade more accurately, and what the difference between a 65 and a 66 might be.

I try to be polite, and I feel really badly when I seem rude. Please accept my apologies.

-Amanda

pharmer · November 25, 2006 9:57AM

OK, FYI- PCGS Grading Standards. Some people, whose motives cannot be determined, claim color influences PCGS' grading. Some whose grades are too low say it lowers the grade; some who think someone is asking too much for a nicely toned coin may say PCGS bumped the grade because of the color. It's an old bromide, and if PCGS is to believed (below), totally false. This thread could get interesting if we now hear from those who indeed think color influences PCGS grading

Description
PO-1 Identifiable date and type
FR-2 Mostly worn, though some detail is visible
AG-3 Worn rims but most lettering is readable though worn
G-4 Slightly worn rims, flat detail, peripheral lettering nearly full
G-6 Rims complete with flat detail, peripheral lettering full
VG-8 Design worn with slight detail
VG-10 Design worn with slight detail, slightly clearer
F-12 Some deeply recessed areas with detail, all lettering sharp
F-15 Slightly more detail in the recessed areas, all lettering sharp
VF-20 Some definition of detail, all lettering full and sharp
VF-25 Slightly more definition in the detail and lettering
VF-30 Almost complete detail with flat areas
VF-35 Detail is complete but worn with high points flat
EF-40 Detail is complete with most high points slightly flat
EF-45 Detail is complete with some high points flat
AU-50 Full detail with friction over most of the surface, slight flatness on high points
AU-53 Full detail with friction over 1/2 or more of surface, very slight flatness on high points
AU-55 Full detail with friction on less than 1/2 surface, mainly on high points
AU-58 Full detail with only slight friction on the high points
MS/PR-60 No wear. May have many heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-61 No wear. Multiple heavy marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-62 No wear. Slightly less marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-63 Moderate number/size marks/hairlines, strike may not be full
MS/PR-64 Few marks/hairlines or a couple of severe ones, strike should be average or above
MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike
MS/PR-66 Few minor marks/hairlines not in focal areas, good strike
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed
MS/PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS/PR-70 As struck, with full strike
GV Government issue price

TomB · November 25, 2006 10:58AM

This is an extremely lovely coin having die cracks on both obverse and reverse that are typical for the era. This issue is seen less often with attractive color than many other issues. Nice coin.

docg · November 25, 2006 11:44AM

The coin is lovely. The obverse is well struck and very clean. The reverse is less well struck and has several hits. I like the look of the coin and I agree with lindedad that this one could make 66 with PCGS.

bushmaster8 · November 25, 2006 12:01PM

Certainly looks 66 from the pix.

And I assure you, color does affect grade! Sounds like it might make an interesting "poll" question.

DSH1963 · November 25, 2006 12:14PM

Super color

WoodenJefferson · November 25, 2006 12:59PM

pharmer, I can’t believe you lashed out at a board member accusing them of being disrespectful for asking a simple question. This person has posted here many, many times before and has always had an inquisitive nature to learn more about this hobby. And who better to learn from…those involved in this hobby. I think it is you who should apologise and not the other way around.

All of sudden you have become a spokes person for PCGS because of your submission record and you are basing your opinion solely on that basis alone. That and the number of hit’s a coin has received will be the determining factor of the net grade. I do not buy into this philosophy and I think you are planting the wrong seeds to a budding Numismatist…hence the rebuttal.

Maybe for modern clad coins or bullion coins the number of hits/no hits maybe in whole or part of the determining factor, but it is not the sole determining factor for coins made prior to 1964. Those coins made out of 90% silver or the older coppers, all the way back to Dr. William Sheldon‘s time, author of the book Penny Whimsy, knew about the appeal of natural toning on his early cents. Pre-1964 coins such as Roosevelt Dimes and Washington Quarters typically will acquire very nice toning as we all have seen and experienced.

In contrast to “blast white“, an attractively toned coin may actually grade a bit higher than it would have otherwise, since nice toning is now viewed in the market place as an asset.

The resulting patina on a older coin adds a dimension of aesthetic and historic value lacking in a coin that is brilliant. It is this feature of toning that often adds a distinctive quality to coins, permitting them to rise above their peers, their peers having the look of that natural just out of the mint color. Unattractive tarnish should not be considered as a “bump” just because the surface of the coin displays toning. There is a world of difference between an attractive toned coin and one that is just tarnished

Over the years, the number of originally toned coins have dwindled, as a couple generations of collectors have been misled into believing that "brighter is always better." That and we as collectors no longer use the old methods of storage that created those beautifully toned coins.

Why do you think the “Coin Doctors” have been so busy as of late? Also, many are unable to distinguish original toning from so-called artificial toning, and that induces both suspicion and fear. The experts at the various grading services usually know the difference between a naturally toned, original coin and one that has been altered in any way.

*Grading services recognize the appeal of both brilliant and toned coins, and each piece is evaluated on its merit, without prejudice for or against toning. As values rise and the coin market becomes ever more sophisticated, originality will prove to be as important as luster in determining a coin's value.

Of course you are always welcome to your opinion on this matter, I just chose to disagree with your analysis on this topic.

~Woody~

*quote from Mark Salzberg (edit)

bushmaster8 · November 25, 2006 1:30PM

Well said woodennickel!

It is generally acknowledged that grading is a balance of a coins strike, luster, surface preservation (marks), and eye appeal.

And of course, attractive toning can have a very real effect on eye appeal.

And I also agree that that was a very unwarranted display of troll-paranoia on Pharmers part.

Leiana · November 25, 2006 1:37PM

Thanks for the nice comments, I'll be sure to pass them on to my Dad.

Also, thanks for the suppourt, but please let's not turn this into a big issue, I probably should have been more polite.

My thing is though, I like to know why people say certain grades. I'm sure people have a thought process when they grade coins (insert caveat about grading from pictures here) but when this thought process is not explained, it's really just a number. At least it is to me.

And because I am no good at reading minds (

) the number alone doesn't tell me much. We all know grading is subjective; so explaining the certain subjectivity behind a certain objective score adds more weight to it.

Plus, it can provide for more meaningful discussion, which is the part of this forum I like best.

-Amanda

AZLARRY · November 25, 2006 1:47PM

That is a very attractive Washington, well said WoodenJefferson.

yellowjacket · November 25, 2006 2:18PM

Amanda's the last person I would call rude on these boards.

As for PCGS, I've sent in many Washingtons and found that PCGS is very conservative grading this issue. You may be right about 65 but it could well 66. Your's is as good of an opinion as anyone's.

Yellowjacket

Bruceswar · November 25, 2006 3:21PM

Since you ask for some Opinions on why it is MS66. Here is what I think... Luster is great on the coin for MS66 Strike is on par for the series. The Die crack makes for an interesting selling point. Color is very nice. Oh and last but not least there are very few hits. All this and you come up with MS66. Hope this helps.

uofa1285 · November 25, 2006 3:33PM

Wonderful color and a refreshing change from normal mint set toning, even colorful mint set toning. 65 or 66, it is a keeper!

Doug

54-P Washington End Roll Toned

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