has my commemorative been altered some way ? - REIMAGED

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 2:56AM

this is a super glowing coin in hand, and looks awesome though the devices aren't crisp (hence, AU), but upon taking a pic I noticed the sweep marks on the obv, but nothing like it on the reverse.
I did get this from a very trusted retail place with complete guarantees, so it's not like I got sold a bill of goods on ebay. (sold as AU)

opinions ? this goes in my dansco no matter what, I love the design. now, the search decision needs to be made, which will be my 4th commem....

very tough to take a good pic of because of the reflectivity... is that a sign of dipping ? I can't wait for the ANA grading class so I know what the heck Im talking about

a039 · February 25, 2006 3:11AM

I think that coin is perfect for a dansco. My Oregon does not match my other coins cuz its tooo nice and white. I like rim toned commems and ones that have a lot of original tarnish. I cannot tell if yours is cleaned but its for a dansco anyway so if you paid a fair price I would keep it.. Take care, SoCalMark

braddick · February 25, 2006 3:16AM

Wonderfully polished.

mozin · February 25, 2006 4:04AM

This coin does not come prooflike. From what you say, I would suspect your coin was doctored, not only dipped.

Why not spend a little more to get a PCGS/NGC Commem, since you seem to be having a bit of a problem finding problem free coins?

mirabela · February 25, 2006 4:10AM

Whizzed. Thumbs down. Doesn't look as miserable as lots of other messed-with coins do, but you can do better.

CaptHenway · February 25, 2006 4:20AM

I would guess that it was polished with baking soda, not whizzed.
MOO
TD

BigE · February 25, 2006 4:23AM

Hyperion, I would say that your coin has been altered. If you just want to put together a low grade set in a Dansco no big deal, just pay small $$ for them, not even close to AU money on that one. Might be better to get undamaged ones if you expect to get any return on them down the road------------BigE

CoinResource · February 25, 2006 4:27AM

Prolly whizzed. Look for weird luster.

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2006 4:36AM

You should take a break and look at coins only untill you can tell what has happened to them. If you paid AU money for this coin Take It Back. Be polite with the shop owner and say nothing about your findings here. Take a look through his coin selections and if you see a bunch like this coin stay away from that shop untill the owner learns how to grade coins.

Isn't this the 2nd messed up commen that you have purchased lately ?

Ken

291fifth · February 25, 2006 5:11AM

Looks polished, but the photo is so poorly lit it is really hard to make a judgement.

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 6:02AM

Looks dipped. Otherwise OK, at least as far as I can tell from the picture. If you bought it as an AU, you can't possibly go wrong. It may even be undergraded, not that it matters. AU money is within a couple of bucks of low end uncs.

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 6:05AM

If you paid AU money for this coin Take It Back.

Good way to ruin a relationship with a probably very fair coin dealer.

BTW, this isn't the type of coin/grade that people intentionally overgrade. Polished XFs are worth just as much as AUs.

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2006 6:24AM

<< If you paid AU money for this coin Take It Back.

Good way to ruin a relationship with a probably very fair coin dealer.

BTW, this isn't the type of coin/grade that people intentionally overgrade. Polished XFs are worth just as much as AUs. >>

Andy maybe polished XF's are worth as much in your world but not in mine or in the region I live. A problem coin is just one thing and only one thing. A problem. If the dealer takes the coin back then just maybe he is fair. If not he has problems and needs to be avoided. Certainly there is more than one dealer in this country.

I believe the person that started this thread is new to coin collecting. With this in mind I also believe it is wrong to justify a purchase, going by the picture and the description, like this one. We need to teach right and not wrong. Correct ?

Ken

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 6:28AM

We need to teach right and not wrong. Correct ?

Exactly. Otherwise I would have ignored this thread.

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 6:32AM

the pics exaggerate the luster but it is distinctively different looking than my other coins.
I paid 80 for this for AU, I think I did ok factoring the PCGS value for AU, the other problemed coin was a Stone Mtn w/ a spot on the reverse that I got super cheap so I knew I was getting imperfect goods,
but I like the designs. I do appreciate you guy keeping me on the straight and narrow, I dont take offense at honest opinions. I take them in the spirit in which they were intended. I will consider this guy polished
and enlist him as a representative in the 7070.
I didn't think it was cleaned but polished makes sense, that's the observation I was looking for here.
thanks for all your time

!

Ill try to take another snap later to capture this..

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 6:37AM

the pics exaggerate the luster but it is distinctively different looking than my other coins.

26-S OTs often have a swirling chrome-like luster, unlike any other commem. The die polish lines are also typical. Don't worry, you did fine.

CalGold · February 25, 2006 7:09AM

Interesting thread. Mr. Lustig's reply illustrates the difference between advice from an expert and advice from a bunch of guys on the internet.

CG

BigE · February 25, 2006 7:42AM

Too bad that at his advanced age his eyes are going bad

----------------------BigE

pontiacinf · February 25, 2006 8:09AM

<< Interesting thread. Mr. Lustig's reply illustrates the difference between advice from an expert and advice from a bunch of guys on the internet.

CG >>

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2006 8:34AM

<< Interesting thread. Mr. Lustig's reply illustrates the difference between advice from an expert and advice from a bunch of guys on the internet.

CG >>

No, Mr Lustig's response illustrates the difference between a dealer and a collector. My bet is that hardly any dealers would pay anywhere close to what the guy paid for the coin if it is indeed cleaned/polished. If it is not cleaned the guy did alright. From the picture and the buyers description it sounds and looks as if it has been played with.

Signed:

Ken....One of the Guys on the Internet that does not know Chit.

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 8:40AM

Some drink, some don't. C'est la vie.

Myqqy · February 25, 2006 8:46AM

I was thinking polished, and not attractive. I would find a problem free example in a decent holder...

Xokie · February 25, 2006 9:15AM

In a way, this is a perfect illustrtion of why third party graders exist and prosper. Some dealer sold that coin to you as an honest AU, knowing full well exactly what the coin is. The coin appears strongly to have been polished with baking soda or, more likely Ajax, by some one wanting a shiny new-looking coin. To complete the experience, take the coin back to the same dealer, or a similar small coin shop, and ask to sell it. You will get the straight story, that it has been harshly cleaned and isn't worth much. Expect an offer of about $10.00-15.00. It is kind of a pricy learning experience. Mine was with five beautifully whizzed walkers in poor light. Welcome to coin collecting.

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 9:18AM

Ok, back from dinner. I have to say my images probably were the worst part of this thread, this looked so unlike what the coin really is that it probably misled people.
The coin is very very chromelike in appearance, moreso than any other commems I have seen. I haven't seen a boatload, for the record. MrEureka nailed it sight unseen by him.

This was my first look at this coin live, I bought it online from someone I trust very much, satifaction and grade guaranteed, etc.

I was purely looking for a nice typecoin, and since I see ebayers overbidding with commemoratives that look even remotely good, I tried through my dealer contact to get this type of coin, at a price easily within my reach.

The thing I was primarily curious about were the markings that appeared after the first snaps were taken, I just wanted to get some opinions. Im my years experience I didn' think this was flat out cleaning, I think I can identify that to a certain extent, but the chrome-like look was the thing that was the knuckleball.

Instead of a direct overhead white light, I darkened the room and used a full spectrum tensor indirect (not filtered). These pics give a better representation of what the coin is like in hand. I am pleased with the overall appearance of the coin, and not that I have the characteristic chroming understood, I can like it even more.

A little glare-y

This coin has been the most difficult that ive tried to image.
That being said, I appreciate the honest opinions and toughlove that the board members have been trying to impart. I realize they're done with the best intentions.

-H

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2006 9:19AM

<< Some drink, some don't. C'est la vie.

>>

Too bad you do not have scenes like this in your part of the country. This looks like the John Day River here in Oregon at mid summer. There are some big smallmouth bass in that hole.

Ken

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 9:27AM

Doing some reading, fascinating:

For at least a decade before the California gold rush of 1849, there was a growing migration of settlers to the West. Most of these pioneers were bound for the rich farmland of the Willamette Valley in the Oregon territory and followed a route which stretched over 2,000 miles from Independence, Missouri to Fort Vancouver, now Vancouver, Washington. Crossing the continent on this Oregon Trail was an arduous undertaking in the 1840s, made even more perilous by non-existent roads and the constant threat of violent storms, prairie fires, dysentery and cholera, not to mention sporadic Indian attacks. Travelers on the trail organized themselves into small companies to better fend off the many hazards en route. Due to the rigors of the trip, many did not make it the whole way. But the promise of a new beginning was at the end of the journey, and this spurred on a continuing exodus. As difficult as it was, more than 6,000 people used the trail by 1846. Only the discovery of gold in California in 1848 reduced the flow of traffic.

In 1926, a New York corporation calling itself the Oregon Trail Memorial Association, Inc. petitioned Congress to authorize a half dollar to "commemorate the heroism of our fathers and mothers who traversed the Oregon Trail to the far West with great hardship, daring, and loss of life, which not only resulted in adding new states to the Union, but earned a well-deserved and imperishable fame for the pioneers." The Association, whose president was the pioneer Ezra Meeker (who made the journey in 1851), ostensibly sought to use the funds raised to erect monuments along the route. Subsequent events proved that the promoters had little more than unbridled greed on their minds. Congress, however, was apparently satisfied that the commemoration was of national significance, and passed legislation on May 17, 1926 authorizing the coining of "no more than six million" coins. Thus, the Oregon Trail Commemorative Half Dollar was born - along with the beginning of a speculator rush for limited edition coins.

The design was completed by the famed husband and wife team of James Earle and Laura Gardin Fraser. Mrs. Fraser had designed several commemorative coins, notably the 1922 Grant half dollar and dollar, and her husband, who is credited with the obverse design of the Oregon Trail half, is remembered for creating one of the most memorable of all modern coin designs, the Buffalo nickel.

The obverse of the coin (which was considered the reverse by the Frasers, but not by the Mint) depicts a Conestoga wagon drawn by oxen, heading into a setting sun. The motto IN GOD WE TRUST arcs above at the rim and below the wagon is OREGON TRAIL MEMORIAL and the date. The designers' initials appear behind the wagon. The reverse features a dramatically rendered Indian, standing erect with outstretched arm as if to say "stop." The Indian is superimposed on a map of the U.S. depicting a line of Conestoga wagons heading West. The inscription UNITED STATES OF AMERICA is placed around the Indian, and HALF DOLLAR arcs below at the rim. The overall design of the coin is considered one of the most beautiful and truly "American" in U.S. coinage.

Enthusiastically approving the Frasers' design, the Federal Commission of Fine Arts (charged since 1921 with overseeing the design of coins and medals) sent the models directly to the Medallic Art Company of New York to make mechanical reductions. The hubs were then shipped to the Philadelphia Mint, and in September of 1926, 48,000 coins were struck, along with 30 pieces reserved for assay. This issue became known as the "Ezra Meeker issue," as it was struck 75 years after Meeker's initial trek along the trail. Meeker made the journey again in 1907, when he set out from his Oregon home, purportedly to scout for locations for commemorative plaques.

The coins, sold at $1 each, became an instant hit with the public, so much so that another issue was prepared for emission from the San Francisco Mint. The Association's logic was that those who bought the Philadelphia issues would most certainly desire the San Francisco coins. October saw the first of 100,000 pieces from the western mint go to the Association for resale to the public (mintmarks appear to the right of the F in HALF). But enthusiasm quickly waned, and few coins sold at the issue price. The Treasury became aware of the unsold coins and ordered the Mints to cease production until all the 1926-S issues were sold, which explains why no coins were struck in 1927. Yet, the Association kept exerting pressure on the Treasury, which led to the manufacture of 50,000 coins in 1928. These were named the "Jedediah Smith Issue," as a tribute to one of the more famous Western explorers. By this time, the Treasury had seen the error of its ways and refused to strike any future issues. The 1928-dated coins remained in their vaults for another five years. In 1933, the Commission again exerted considerable pressure to strike coins, and with the melting of the remaining 17,000 1926-S issues, paved the way for the release of the 1928 coins.

Back-room politics have figured in many a decision at the Mint over the years, but the Oregon Trail commemorative program became the biggest abuser in the system. Once again, the Association was authorized to strike yet another issue, this one bearing the date 1933 and struck at the Denver Mint. The plan was to offer the mintage of 5,250 coins to visitors at the Century of Progress Exposition, at a cost of $2 each. These became an instant disaster and were sold mostly to speculators by the Scott Stamp and Coin Company of New York. The Scott Company was also charged with liquidating the 1928 issues, but managed to sell only 6,000 coins. Ultimately, 44,000 of the 1928 coins went into the melting pot.

1934 saw the Denver Mint strike 7,000 coins, known as the "Fort Hall, Ft. Laramie and Jason Lee Issue." This pattern was repeated in 1936 in Philadelphia (10,000) and San Francisco (5,000), again in 1937 in Denver (12,000), and finally with a three-piece set containing one coin from each of the three mints in 1938 (6,000) and 1939 (3,000).

The obvious abuses, profiteering and behind-the-scenes political maneuvering didn't sit well with collectors of the day, but the relatively low mintages of the later issues kept sales brisk. Sales to speculators were the rule, however, as individuals played leapfrog to get the new 1937 issues. The Association, who had previously given Scott Stamp & Coin the rights for distribution, again took over the sales of the later dates, decrying the greedy dealers trying to take advantage of the public. This arrangement did not work out as well as their initial distribution experience, and as late as 1943, other patriotic societies were trying to sell the coins to new buyers who were unaware of the earlier issues. But when the last Oregon Trail half was struck in 1939, its on-and-off, fourteen-year run had witnessed a total of only 264,419 coins minted, of which 61,317 were eventually melted, leaving a net mintage of just 202,928 pieces - less than 4% of the number originally authorized.

Today, the 14 Oregon Trail issues are often collected as a subset within the commemorative series. Most are available in the higher mint state grades, many exhibiting attractive toning from years of storage. Strike is not often a problem, with the exception of the 1926 Philadelphia issue which was poorly executed, causing a noticeable lack of detail on the Indian's hand. Deep, frosty luster is the norm, but semi-prooflike surfaces on the 1926-S and some branch mint issues of the 1930s are also characteristic. Points to first show wear are the Indian's hand and thigh on the obverse and the ox and the bows of the wagon's cover on the reverse.

Oregon Trail halves were distributed in cardboard holders imprinted with the manufacturer's name and, in some cases, the Association's name and address as well. These holders have spaces for three coins and were cut into thirds for single pieces. Typically, original mailing envelopes will show postmarks dated long after the issues were struck.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Diameter: 30.6 millimeters
Weight: 12.5 grams
Composition: .900 silver, .100 copper
Edge: Reeded
Net Weight: .36169 ounce pure silver

braddick · February 25, 2006 9:30AM

<< Interesting thread. Mr. Lustig's reply illustrates the difference between advice from an expert and advice from a bunch of guys on the internet.

CG >>

Yep. And sometimes those guys on the internet simply get it right without any "Dealer" experience because sometimes it's just right there before your eyes.

fcloud · February 25, 2006 9:32AM

That coin just looks way too shiney!

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 9:36AM

<< In a way, this is a perfect illustrtion of why third party graders exist and prosper. Some dealer sold that coin to you as an honest AU, knowing full well exactly what the coin is. The coin appears strongly to have been polished with baking soda or, more likely Ajax, by some one wanting a shiny new-looking coin. To complete the experience, take the coin back to the same dealer, or a similar small coin shop, and ask to sell it. You will get the straight story, that it has been harshly cleaned and isn't worth much. Expect an offer of about $10.00-15.00. It is kind of a pricy learning experience. Mine was with five beautifully whizzed walkers in poor light. Welcome to coin collecting. >>

Because b&m dealers are always 100% honest in thier assessment of the coins. You are disagreeing with MrEureka that these coins sometimes have chrome-like appearance ? From that article I clipped "Deep, frosty luster is the norm, but semi-prooflike surfaces on the 1926-S and some branch mint issues of the 1930s are also characteristic."

Fairlaneman · February 25, 2006 9:44AM

Where are the sweep marks you referred to ? Out in the fields or covering the whole obverse ? From your second picture the coin looks Mint State wear wise. Actually the reverse looks worse off to me from your pictures.

Lets get to the bottom of this.

Signed

Ken....the collector that does not know chit.

Hyperion · February 25, 2006 9:52AM

check out the marks in the field in front of mr. indians eyes, they're highlighted in the original picture.
this is a nice coin in hand, but Im having problems imaging it properly with my camera.

it's not a typical cleaning uniform rub mark and isn't a swirl, it's just difference, hence the thread. but at this point, because I can't image the coin to the groups satisfaction I am going to withdraw my original question. it seems to be characteristic of the coin. again, im having problem imagining the existing detail, when I turn up the lighting my camera washes everything out and the pics are as the original. Im just going to holder it SGS PR70 and put an Ebay BIN of 70k on it, or just, keep it in my dansco.

take care, sorry to have wasted ur time.

mirabela · February 25, 2006 10:23AM

Look, all those parallel little wispy hairlines had to come from something, right? There's also this to consider -- the color of the surfaces is absolutely uniform, which never happens on an 80-year old silver coin absent some sort of messing-with. That coin has been more than dipped.

Keep it, return it -- it isn't like we're talking about a lot of money here, and I disagree with the previous poster who suggests $10-$15 is all you can get for this coin. With those pics & full disclosure of this coin's problems, whatever they may be, you can still get out at XF bid or better. So it isn't a big deal from that standpoint.

That coin just looks all wrong, and while I am not an expert on this or any other series, I do have firsthand experience with reliably original 1926-S Oregons and this looks nothing like them.

originalisbest · February 25, 2006 10:25AM

I'm glad you're happy with the coin, but for my part, I wouldn't offer you anything other than melt value for it - your new photo leaves no doubt. Take a look at some certified pieces in MS and you'll come to know the difference. Your coin has been polished to within a centimeter of its life; I'm "just a collector", and I also have a pair of eyes. With more experience you'll be able to see for yourself.

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 10:26AM

With those pics & full disclosure of this coin's problems, whatever they may be, you can still get out at XF bid or better.

Would somebody please tell us what XF, AU and MS60 bids are?

BigE · February 25, 2006 10:32AM

100, 110 and 135-----------------BigE

BigE · February 25, 2006 10:33AM

Not sure how much the labor is for polishing though----------BigE

majorbigtime · February 25, 2006 10:37AM

POS

MrEureka · February 25, 2006 10:37AM

100, 110 and 135-----------------BigE

All I have to say is this.

BigE · February 25, 2006 10:56AM

I'm not downloading your link, might be a horses arse or something, and I am on dial-up, could take forever--------------BigE

Myqqy · February 25, 2006 3:26PM

but at this point, because I can't image the coin to the groups satisfaction I am going to withdraw my original question.

I don't think the images were the problem- most folks seem to think it looks heavily polished, and I'm guessing you'd rather hear people tell you what you want to hear. I still think it looks polished and awful, but I bet you can get it into an sgs70 slab.....

PerryHall · February 25, 2006 3:31PM

<< 
No, Mr Lustig's response illustrates the difference between a dealer and a collector. My bet is that hardly any dealers would pay anywhere close to what the guy paid for the coin if it is indeed cleaned/polished. If it is not cleaned the guy did alright. From the picture and the buyers description it sounds and looks as if it has been played with. >>

Looks cleaned to me but it may be the pic. I'd have to see it in hand to render a final verdict.

has my commemorative been altered some way ? - REIMAGED

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