A Nice toned Peace Dollar
Newmismatist
Posts: 1,802 ✭✭
There's been a little controversy lately about toned Peace Dollars - Here's one I've had for awhile - (it was NOT stored for 80 years in a brown envelope) - but this is what I refer to as a WOW coin -actually a double WOW coin as everyone says WOW when they see the obverse, and WOW! when they turn it over and look at the reverse! Enjoy 
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
0
Comments
<< <i>Well, IMHO (I have only 50+yr experience in numismatics), it's just another "doctored" peace dollar. I wouldn't pay a premium for it, even if PCGS holdered.
An opinion, yet respected, is incorrect.
<< <i>Well, IMHO (I have only 50+yr experience in numismatics), it's just another "doctored" peace dollar. I wouldn't pay a premium for it, even if PCGS holdered.
I'm just curious, what makes you think that?
Whose going to break the news?
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
"no WAY is THIS one artificially toned!"
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
not to many get this..... but...
that one...
is 'HepKitty approved'!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Mikey
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>Sorry, but I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. >>
me either...
but I would sure admire that jewel while holding it in my hand...!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Sorry, but I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. >>
Not a problem for me, If you don't like toned coins (or this toned Peace Dollar), then it's not something you should collect or buy. Anyway, it's Not For Sale, and probalby won't be as I doubt I'll find another one this nice.
Nice original toned peace dollars are quite scarce - In the past year, I've seen very few toned Peace Dollars that I thought had exceptional toning - Airplanenut has one (posted above) that I think is very nice. One of the things that I've learned about collecting toned coins is that there's a segment of collectors who don't like them, and my thought is simple - if you don't like toned coins, don't buy them. There are some series and certain coins that I don't like - so I don't collect them. My advice - collect what you like, enjoy and appreciate.
Also, collecting toned coins requires carefully scrutiny, and an understanding of the toning process. If you don't want to take the time to learn toning characterics that are indicative of NT coins, then they are not something you should collect. Doesn't bother me, as I buy coins that I like and I'm comfortable doing so. In the image, the greens are slightly more intense than the coin in hand - this coin was quite difficult to image, but it looks quite nice in hand.
edited to correct typos
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Disclaimer: I'm NOT an expert or even a student of NT vs. AT.
But for what it's worth, my gut reaction upon first viewing the coin was that it was AT, and Newmismatist was trying to teach us a lesson. Something like: "I'm going to try to convince people that this AT coin is NT with a good story....then we'll see how people react compared to a "known" AT coin.
Intentional or not, I think there may be a lesson here. We got both AT and NT answers from the crowd!
(Again....I'm not one to even deserve a guess in such debates!)
<< <i> But for what it's worth, my gut reaction upon first viewing the coin was that it was AT, and Newmismatist was trying to teach us a lesson. Something like: "I'm going to try to convince people that this AT coin is NT with a good story....then we'll see how people react compared to a "known" AT coin. >>
Nope - It's a coin I own, no story with this coin, nor when I purchased it. I believe the coin to be NT, when I showed it to John Albanese when I bought it he said WOW and believed it to be NT, and everyone that I know who deal in toned coins who have seen the coin in hand indicate that its NT in their opinion - Now, those that I respect as to their knowledge of toning and toned coins all strive to keep AT coins off the market. We are not the least bit interested in promoting, buying or selling AT coins, nor do we particularly like coins that we believe to be AT but get graded and are called "Market" acceptable - The reason is simple - they don't "look" like NT coins, and most of us are not interested in buying them for our collections.
I happen to like this coin - I think it's very nice for a toned Peace dollar as few actually tone attractively - and than's the title of this thread: "A Nice toned Peace Dollar" no hidden agenda or game here - click on the link in my sig line and go over to the Rainbow Room at the TCCS forums and you'll see a lot of attractively toned coins - there's a few of us who actively collect attractively toned coins with great eye-appeal - and I found that much more enjoyable than buying unattractive coins that have a high number on a piece of paper.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
did any of them speculate on "how it happened"?
or did they just say, "yup, I think that's "real" all rightie!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
in the end all we can each do is try to learn as much as we can and trust that judgement along with those farther along the road.
Here's my perspective. I will gladly pay an extra 10 to 20% for a rare date gold coin that is original. How do I know it is original? It looks original. Am I wrong some of the time? I am sure. What is the cost of being wrong? Maybe 10 to 20%, sometimes nothing.
People are paying 10 to 20 times standard price for a wildly toned colorful coin. What is the cost of being wrong?
<< <i>Sorry, but I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. >>
Why would you want to touch it with a ten foot pole anyway?
It's a beauty!
<< <i>If you don't want to take the time to learn toning characterics that are indicative of NT coins, then they are not something you should collect >>
Not to be awnry, but I suspect that if this coin was posted by a someone who was not a toned coin insider it would have received a throng of cat calls.
So, Ron, here's a good opportunity to explain how you concluded that this coin is NT and why this Peace toned up like it did "naturally" while so few others have.
CG
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Pretty but I'm staying away from toned Peace dollars for a while. >>
Sounds like a good policy.
It's pretty and all, but the whole pink and green thing scares me.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Take out the word "toned", and I still agree with your statement.
1. I don't KNOW how it toned that way - It already looked just like that when I bought it a couple of years ago, and still looks the same today - which means that it's stable and the toning was not created by directly adding chemicals to the surface of the coin. The colors lay on the coin with the same look as the colors on naturally toned coins that I own - It's really hard to explain - I would surmise that it took many years for the colors to develop - If you live where it snows the best way for me to describe natural toning is NT is like powder snow - the atoms of Silver-Sulphur gradually build up on the coin over a period of time - years as opposed to hours - Artificially Toned coins in contrast are toned quickly - like taking a shovel full of wet snow and dumping it on the coin - thick and unnatural looking.
2. IF I knew what made it look like that, I'd put every Peace Dollar I own in the same environment - lock them away and look at them in 5 years and pray that the toning Gods smiled on me - I might have to wait even longer as who knows how long it takes for any coin to tone when they were stored without the intention of having them "tarnish".
3. Nicely toned Peace Dollars are actually very rare - they tend to toned kinda "Fugly" and you never see the nice bag toned coins that you see in Morgans - It's almost as if the mint started usin a different Silver alloy that doesn't react to sulphur, canvas bags, paper and airborn contaminents the same way as Morgans.
4. To determine AT or NT you've GOT to have an understanding of exactly what makes a coin tone. In no particular order you need the following: 1) a metal surface that will react to it's external environment 2) A toning "element" - which is usually Sulphur, but can be other elements, such as Phosphorus, or gases, such as Hydrogen Sulphide and the proper storage environment. The toning elements can be in the environment (the air) or part of the storage container that the coin resides in - Canvas bags apparently have either some element of sulphur in them or the storage location where the bags resided were in an environment that had had ambient sulphur gases in the atmosphere. Temperature and humidity play a role in this process. Paper is made using sulphuric acid - which imparts sulphur into the paper. Whether the surface of the metal has a protective coating on it or has a "fresh surface" makes all the difference as to whether the coin will tone (react to its environment).
5. To understand all of this you need a basic understanding of Chemistry, Physics with a little Optics thrown in to understand the concept of how light refracts and reflects when there is a "thin film" on the surface of a metal. How long the process takes depends on all of the above factors. You can tone a fresh silver surface in seconds by passing it over a heavy concentration of Hydrogen Sulphide gas, or heating it with a blow torch, the same is true of copper. You can put a "clean" coin (a coin with a fresh metal surface) in a paper envelope and over a period of time it will also tone - or you can put them in a cardboard album and it will also likely tone, again over a period of time. If you put a coin in a plastic container that has a piece of paper in it (think slabs) and that paper is NOT sealed off from the coin, the coin can actually tone in the slab - I've seen slabs (I think PCI) with Silver SAEs that say either "White" or "Untoned" on the paper insert and the coins IN THE HOLDER are multi-colored - my "guess' is that they were stored in a hot and Humid environment and the gases that eminate from the paper had no where to go EXCEPT to bond with that silver surface of the coin and BINGO a TONED "White" coin.
How did that coin tone like it did? I'm not sure Exactly how it happened - but the process happened essentially as described above and becasue of the way the toning lays on the coin I believe to have been a long term process, hence a natural process as opposed to a "Quicky" enhancement - Great toned coins are like fine wine - they require some "aging" and the proper stroage environment!
The truth of the matter is this: If you have experience collecting coins (I have over 56 years of coin collecting experience) and when you took HS Chemistry you experimented with the copper and silver coins that you could take out of your pocket AND you ruined a LOT of Pocket change - you'd have a pretty good understanding of the difference between AT and NT - 40 years ago I ruined a LOT of pocket change
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Pretty but I'm staying away from toned Peace dollars for a while. >>
"We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it -- and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again -- and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one any more."
Mark Twain in Pudd'nhead Wilson's New Calendar
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>Wow.......wow.
What Dicky Said!!
WOW! What a Toner!
TorinoCobra71
<< <i>Still no one knows for sure NT or AT. I don't think that coin looks nice at all. I don't understand this TONER "fad". (Yes, it is a fad until the dealers cant make the big buck on them anymore). >>
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>Still no one knows for sure NT or AT. I don't think that coin looks nice at all. I don't understand this TONER "fad". (Yes, it is a fad until the dealers cant make the big buck on them anymore). >>
Yep, just a passing 'fad' for the past 30-40 yrs. or so, LOLOLOL. I'm sure the fad will be over in the next week or two though.
<<According to Ron Guth in his recent Coin World column (Feb. 27, 2006), the craze for toned coins has come and gone before and will likely do so again.
Quoting:
"Years ago, toned silver coins were considered to be desirable and collectors often paid big premiums for them.
A short time later, the emergence of artifical toning created enough confusion in the marketplace that prices collapsed and toned coins became extremely unpopular."
If I did not know better, I would have thought he was talking about the 2005/6 coin market in 2010.>>
Perhaps toned coins are not a fad but a cycle.
<< <i>Dizzy, this one is for you (I have previously posted it elsewhere):
<<According to Ron Guth in his recent Coin World column (Feb. 27, 2006), the craze for toned coins has come and gone before and will likely do so again.
Quoting:
"Years ago, toned silver coins were considered to be desirable and collectors often paid big premiums for them.
A short time later, the emergence of artifical toning created enough confusion in the marketplace that prices collapsed and toned coins became extremely unpopular."
If I did not know better, I would have thought he was talking about the 2005/6 coin market in 2010.>>
Perhaps toned coins are not a fad but a cycle.
Actually this is quite an over-simplication of the whole issue of paying peremium prices for exceptional coins. here's why:
Years ago, there were no grading services with a number grade - coins were either uncirculated or had verying degrees of circulation. look in any redbook from the 50s or 60s - By way example, I happen to have a 1956 9th ed Redbook in Hand. For Morgan dollars there are 3 grades listed: VF, Unc and Proof. That's it. So back in the 50s - If you wanted say an 1893-S in Unc - it would cost you $300 IF you could find one. and IF you were picky and didn't want an AU masquerading as an Unc., you might step up and pay say $325 for a real Unc and if you were really fussy and wanted a REALLY nice 1893-S you might just have to pay $375 to $400 for a Gem, very PQ Unc. 1893-S - fully 33% MORE than retail. Now if you were an even more astute collector, you might insist that your GEM Unc 1893-S not be CLEANED - which back then meant DIPPED - so for say around $400 in 1956 you could get a nice original 1893-S Morgan - it might be album toned, it might be nearly pure white, but if the dealer you bought it from was knowledgeable, you'd own a very nice un-messed with Gem 1893-S - the trick back then was to know which of the dealers you could trust not to sell you a messed with AU coin that had been played with to "look" Unc.
You ask - what's this got to so with toning - well nothing with regard to collecting original beautifully toned coins, but a whole LOT with grading. The entire concept of AT started NOT with trying to make coins look colorful like the recently sold Battle Creek coins. It had EVERYTHING to do with HIDING problems - so if a coin had been cleaned and was "hairlained" (an obvious indication of abrasive cleaning) or was a bit too bright because it had been lightly polished, what's the 1950's coin Dr to do so that he can sell that obviously cleaned or slightly abused (but still "high" grade appearing) coin? You guessed right Sherlock! He's gonna TONE that puppy - not to make it colorful, but simply to HIDE those grade-limiting marks - THAT is the origin of ATing virtually all coins until just recently.
Skip ahead to the mid 90s - the major grading services are finding out that skilled coin doctors can fool them by covering up grade-limiting problems by "toning" coins - WHAT TO DO? Every now and then they have to pay $$ because they got fooled and the HIGHER THE GRADE the more they have to pay when a toned coin that was toned to hide marks gets by the 6 to 10 seconds that the professional graders spend making their professional decision.
WHAT TO DO? OH WHAT TO DO?? - Well here's a real simple cost saving solution - If it's toned just grade it 1, 2 or 3 grades lower - THEN when the docs slip one by - you'll only pay 63 money for that doctored POS, not real 65 or 66 money. And the TPGS market decided that TONED coins were worth less and TONED coins would NOT grade as high. THIS is what started the great: ITS GOTTA BE WHITE craze and many, many beautiful toned coins were dipped and stripped because he TPGS would give a washed out, over-dipped coin a higher grade than a beautifully toned coin.
It is my belief that the comment: "prices collapsed and toned coins became extremely unpopular" reflects what the thinking was by the TPGS to protect themselves from the coin docs who used that slight bit of "toning" to cover up those grade limiting marks to get the services to grade problem coins so they (the dealers) could sell them to the unsuspecting colllectors. THe TPGS created the "confusion" to limit their monetary losses when they got fooled. SO - the END result is that Dealers decided that WHITE coins were worth more because A) they got graded higher and B)they got more money for WHITE coins and they didn't have the poor collector coming back a year later saying to them - you remember that nice MS65 lightly toned 1893-S you sold me? well, I showed it to XXX and he pointed out the huge scratches and the hairlines that that toning hides and he says it's reallly only AU and I want my money back - and when XXXX grading company looks at the coin carefull for MORE than 10 seconds they see the obvious marks and everything else wrong with that coin and they refund a bagfull of money, and the word goes forth: Toning is not acceptable because it hides the Doctors work, and lo the dipping begins! There were a whole lot of coins dipped because of this mind set - all you need do is look at all the dipped and stripped crap in holders that have high paper grades attached to those deadly dull coins - Maybe, just maybe, the grading services are responsible for a lot of beautiful coins that have lost forever their beautiful patina's - because they wouldn't take the time to grade the real ones for what they were, because it takes more than 6 seconds to figure that out - so the easy way is either bag 'em or grade 'em real low and let the "market-place" sort out the nice stuff from the crap.
Skip ahead a few more years - some gorgeous original toned Comms and Morgans that sat untouched in original bags and in original issue holders come up for auction - those coins go for STUPID money - What now follows is the new cottage industry where the coin butchers AT coins NOT to hide grade-limiting marks, but to sell eye-appeal - and the end-buyer (whether a dealer looking to making a killing selling a monster toned Oragon Comm for $69K or a monster toned common date Morgan for $10K, or a collector thinking he just bought a $10K Peace Dollar on ebay for $55) gets hosed. WHY? Because they let what they THINK they're getting (a valuable coin) get in the way of what they SEE with their own eyes - a coin that really doesn't look quite right. And if enough people, whether Dealers or collectors, get burned enough - we'll go right back to dipping and stripping - which is just another way of ruining a lot of nice coins.
The answer is - EDUCATE yourself - learn to distinguish the real nice coins from the junk crap - and don't think that that's going to happen without a little effort on the your part. There is no "Royal" road to becoming a successful coin collector - it takes a "little" work on your part - and learning about coins is the ONLY way to do that.
BTW - Regarding the Peace Dollar I posted: How many other Peace Dollars that look like the one I posted have you seen? For those that think it's AT: If there's a doctor out there making 'em that look like that, why aren't they for sale in Gototoning's ebay store selling for $55 for all who want one? Or Maybe the doc who made that one was ONLY able to do it once, then dropped dead and took his secret receipe to the grave with him?
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>he way the toning lays on the coin I believe to have been a long term process, hence a natural process as opposed to a "Quicky" enhancement - Great toned coins are like fine wine - they require some "aging" and the proper stroage environment! >>
I always thought that it is the source of the toning not the time to tone that is the determinative factor.
The discussion has been played out here before in the form of “if I put a coin in a Wayte Raymond album and wait (or is that wayte?) long enough do I wind up with an NT coin?” And if I put the album in an environment that will do in two years what would take 7 to 10 years in a different environment is it still NT? Sort of like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and in the end it probably does not matter.
With album toned coins, bag toned coins, end rollers and tab toners we pretty much "know" the source of the toning and it is seen with frequency.
Now I will be the first to admit that I am not an expert on toning and I have no idea whatsoever whether Ron’s Peace dollar is NT or not NT, or market acceptable or not. And I have no opinion one way or the other on the matter and even if I did I would not state it as it would be an opinion not backed by expertise and therefore would have no merit.
But if a coin that "normally" does not tone a certain way pops up and we cannot attribute its toning to a known and familiar source -- one that is known to have produced similar results many times with other coins—don’t be surprised if a lot people wonder why the laws of chemistry that kept all of the other coins from toning that way didn’t apply to your coin. Kind of reminds me of Joe Pesci cross examining the grits cooker in My Cousin Vinnie “do you mean to tell us that the laws of physics that apply everywhere else on the planet earth don’t apply in your kitchen.”
CG
<< <i>I always thought that it is the source of the toning not the time to tone that is the determinative factor. >>
It's where the coin was, what it was in, what the coins surface condition was when it was put in that location, what chemicals/gases were nearby, how hot, how humid, any temperature fluctuation, how long, just to mention a few things that affect how a coin does (or does not tone).
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website