I Thought it was Illegal to Sell These

dragon · June 25, 2003 9:50AM

Take a look at Ebay Item # 3032352615, all poorly done counterfeits and not marked as replica coins. This seller has listed large quantities of fake Seated and Trade dollars too.

Isn't it against the law to offer these for sale, and also against Ebay policies, I was just curious? Kinda neat conversation pieces though.

dragon

anoldgoat · June 25, 2003 9:55AM

I too think they are supposed to have COPY stamped on them somewhere. Otherwise they are counterfiet.

I think, mike

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 9:59AM

Here's the link There's no foul. The seller clearly states that they are replicas. Counterfeiting is when you try to pass them off as real.

kyleknap · June 25, 2003 10:01AM

JonZ,

It's not that he's representing them as real, I think there are laws against replicas being too close to the originals w/o being clearly marked as reproductions and not legal tender.

A lawyer, anywhere?

Kyle

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 10:14AM

It's legal to sell counterfeits as long as they're sold as counterfeits, even under the Hobby Protection Act. If you clearly state that they are "counterfeit", you won't have the Secret Service knocking on your door in the middle of the night. (I hate when that happens.)

kyleknap · June 25, 2003 10:20AM

Safeharbor stuff....

http://pages.ebay.com/help/index_popup.html?policies=currstamps.html

<< <i>Any "reproduction," "replica," or "copy" coin (U.S. or foreign) must be plainly and permanently marked with the word COPY. >>

(not trying to make a big deal of this....just need to know incase I need to make some extr amoney sometime

)

Kyle

toothpuller · June 25, 2003 10:21AM

The Secret Service won't be knocking on that seller's door. They are coming from China.

Watch them get AT'd and resold for profit on ebay.

cherrypickincoin · June 25, 2003 10:23AM

You can sell any counterfeit item legally so long as you don't plan to introduce that item into commerce or into someone's hands as a genuine item. If you inform the purchaser that the piece is indeed counterfeit, there is no foul according to the law. If it was illegal, the ANA wouldn't be allowed to keep their massive collection of counterfeits! PCGS would not be allowed to keep them on hand either. They are wonderful reference pieces and I see no problem in collecting them or purchasing them, so long as you're fair in describing it.

Outhaul · June 25, 2003 10:23AM

My question is...why the hell would someone spend $5.00 plus shipping for a fake Morgan when you can get a circulated authentic one at any coin show for between $5 - $7 here at home?

Cheers,

Bob

cherrypickincoin · June 25, 2003 10:27AM

I'm sure there are various reasons involved outhaul. I can only imagine that the only "honest" reason anyone would want to purchase one is for reference purposes. Looking at enough of these can help a person distinguish counterfeit from genuine. It's most important to learn the diagnostics of genuine coins before learning counterfeit pieces but I'm sure they are of some value to those out there that care to learn. I've never purchased one but I have certainly viewed plenty of them.

kyleknap · June 25, 2003 10:33AM

They're interesting.

Why doesn't the secret service have the common decency to knock on your door at a reasonable hour?

Kyle

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 11:03AM

Aye, there's the rub, toothpuller. Buy them as counterfeits and sell tham as real. Now you WILL have the Secret Service knocking at your door in the middle of the night, that is, if anyone is smart enough to complain to the Secret Service.

coingallery2 · June 25, 2003 11:07AM

I enjoy collecting British conterfeits. Quite a few of the counterfeits are worth a lot more then the genuine coin.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 11:26AM

I Thought it was Illegal to Sell These

You are 100% correct.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 11:36AM

NO, I'm sorry, but it is NOT illegal to sell these. The Hobby Protection Act stipulates that reproductions need to have a "copy" stamp on them. However, counterfeits before that legislation are legal to own, sell, and trade as long as they are not passed off as originals. American dollars, especially Trade Dollars and a great many Morgans were extensively counterfeited in the Far East. The loophole is: how do determine the provenence of such a coin? Was it minted before or after the Hobby Protection Act? I have an electrotype 1793 half-cent made in the 19th century. As long as I don't try to pass it off as an original, I have broken no laws.

ldhair · June 25, 2003 11:46AM

I vote with JohnZ.
If you say it's real for personal gain you have a legal problem.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 11:55AM

LOL, ldhair. I appreciate your voting for me, but it's non sequiter. All I did was state the law as it is now. You don't get to vote, you just get to comply!

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 11:55AM

The Hobby Protection Act did not make previously illegal activities legal; instead, it defined more illegal activities.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:00PM

I have an electrotype 1793 half-cent made in the 19th century. As long as I don't try to pass it off as an original, I have broken no laws.

You have not run afoul of the HPA, nor have you committed fraud. That doesn't make it legal.

ElectricEye · June 25, 2003 12:02PM

So does this mean I can sell stacks of U.S. 100 dollar bills as long as I tell the buyer they are counterfeit?

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:05PM

Mr. Eureka, with all due respect, have you read the Hobby Protection Act? Section 304.6 (a): "(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked "COPY". " The operative word is "commerce", as defined by Federal Trade Commission Act. I'm going to let you look that one up.

kyleknap · June 25, 2003 12:05PM

<< <i>So does this mean I can sell stacks of U.S. 100 dollar bills as long as I tell the buyer they are counterfeit >>

As long as you mention they were produced in the 19th century.

edit...cant spel

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:08PM

And by the way, eloctrotype copies of early coins were extensively produced during the 19th century for museum displays. They were approved and sanctiond by the US government for said purposes.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:09PM

Mr. Eureka, with all due respect, have you read the Hobby Protection Act?

Yes, although not recently. Since you are obviously more familiar with the Act, why don't you tell us where it says that it is legal to own and trade in unmarked copies of US coins manufactured before 1965.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:13PM

Fair enough. The Hobby Protection Act says no such thing, but it is implied in the definition of "commerce". I'll respond if I can, but it means I have to go look up the Federal Trade Commission Act, upon which the Hobby Protection Act draws for it's definitions. It might take a while.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:19PM

The Hobby Protection Act says no such thing, but it is implied in the definition of "commerce". I'll respond if I can, but it means I have to go look up the Federal Trade Commission Act, upon which the Hobby Protection Act draws for it's definitions.

Not necessary. They're referring to "numismatic items", so I think it's fair to assume that by "commerce" they mean "the numismatic trade". I'm sure that (if push came to shove) they would define "the numismatic trade" in a very wide manner, including sales to non-collectors.

braddick · June 25, 2003 12:20PM

Common sense: Try running a counterfeit Rolex auction and watch yourself be shut down within hours (if not sooner) and sternly warned by eBay. Run counterfeit COIN auctions and you don't hear a peep because it is legal to do so as long as you state it is a collectible AND is counterfeit.

Printed matter (such as currency) falls under a different, more strict set of laws and guidelines.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:25PM

Common sense: Try running a counterfeit Rolex auction and watch yourself be shut down within hours (if not sooner) and sternly warned by eBay. Run counterfeit COIN auctions and you don't hear a peep because it is legal to do so as long as you state it is a collectible AND is counterfeit.

If the Secret Service was running eBay, I'd buy that argument!

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:26PM

Mr. Eureka, yes I see your point now. As a read the Act, a great many things are defined except for "numismatic item". That leaves a huge loophole for "interpretation". I'm going to go read the Federal Trade Commission Act Now, but here's a post for anyone interested: Hobby Protection Act

mercurynut · June 25, 2003 12:29PM

You can list anything on ebay fake or not they rarely care.....

kyleknap · June 25, 2003 12:31PM

mercurynut,

eBay suspended me for selling a fake pair of shoes!

braddick · June 25, 2003 12:32PM

Andy, with the thousands of tattletales scurrying around eBay auctions you would think at least ONE counterfeit coin auction would have been shut down by now.
And with all the grief eBay received either solicited or unsolicited by outside agencies they would have also banned the sale of these items.
The fact not ONE auction has been shut down (and- in fact, dozens are running even right now as we speak) tells me it's legal.

sinin1 · June 25, 2003 12:35PM

This seller looks very much like the typical - cash out and get kicked off ebay and don't deliver anything. A friend is collecting the money for them in Illinois with PAYPAL??

A seller that has 32 feedback in last year - but none from selling ??

I truly wonder if this seller is actually in China and if so - what standard of living would it be comparable to in the US if they made $300 - $500 in next 2 weeks??

Anyone got $15 to piss away? you can buy one and keep us posted when item arrives

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:37PM

OK, LMFAO! Chapter Two Section 44 of the Federal Trade Commission Act defines "commerce" as "commerce"! And I quote: "''Commerce'' means commerce among the several States or with foreign nations, or in any Territory of the United States or in the District of Columbia, or between any such Territory and another, or between any such Territory and any State or foreign nation, or between the District of Columbia and any State or Territory or foreign nation. " There's no end of loopholes any way around. I'm embarrassed to say that I think I've proven my point in the most illogical and circumspect, not to mention unexpected way I possibly could have! (What was my point? LOL)

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:38PM

I see your point now.

No, you don't. (But thanks for keeping an open mind!)

The issue is: Can you legally own an unmarked counterfeit US coin? The Secret Service and I say no. You say yes. The HPA says nothing.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:42PM

with the thousands of tattletales scurrying around eBay auctions you would think at least ONE counterfeit coin auction would have been shut down by now.

MANY have been shut down. I've learned that the hard way, bidding on contemporary counterfeits (advertised as such), only to have eBay cancel the auctions. I even got into an electronic shouting match with eBay over one of those, to no avail.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:48PM

Mr. Eureka: Au contraire, I do see your point, and it is to the letter of the law. I have no argument with it now that I've reread those documents. However, the definitions of "commerce" and "numismatic item" are either too vague or non-existent to have any real meaning. By the way, how do you define "illegal"? In my state (Massachusetts), it's illegal to have an extra-marital affair, to buy alcohol on Sundays, and for policemen to smoke cigarettes. Those blue laws are never enforced, except for the fact that last week a policeman was actually fired for smoking!! No joke, it was all over the news.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 12:52PM

I'm also a long time boardie at eBay. Do you know what happens when you complain about a fraudulent auction? They reprimand you, and pull the thread on which you were discussing the auction. We call it a pink slap, because the teenage delinquents that moniter the boards always post with a pink header.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 12:58PM

By the way, how do you define "illegal"? In my state (Massachusetts), it's illegal to have an extra-marital affair, to buy alcohol on Sundays, and for policemen to smoke cigarettes. Those blue laws are never enforced, except for the fact that last week a policeman was actually fired for smoking!! No joke, it was all over the news.

Perfect analogy! My definition is based on the letter of the law, not the degree to which the laws are enforced.

MrEureka · June 25, 2003 1:00PM

Back to the original eBay sale. I believe the Secret Service WOULD have an interest in pursuing this seller.

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 1:04PM

You think the Secret Service would have an interest in pursuing this seller? Pardon me for asking, but isn't the letter of the law and the degree to which it's enforced existentially two sides of the same coin, if you will???

braddick · June 25, 2003 1:40PM

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&query=counterfeit&categoryid=&ht=1&st=2&category1=253&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&BasicSearch=&from=R2&catref=C3

michael · June 25, 2003 3:29PM

it is illegal to sell these unless they are marked copy prominantely on one side or the other

sincerely michael

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 3:52PM

Michael: Why? Why is it illegal? Show me the legislation. I've quoted the Hobby Protection Act, given a link to it earlier in the thread. Here's a link to the Federal Trade Commission Act. I've expostulated on the vague definitions of key terms in both documents. Where are you folks getting your information, other than hearsay? (Somebody told you it was illegal?) It's not that I agree with counterfeiting, or any type of fraudulent activity, on the contrary I abhor it. But show me the legislation already, and how you interpret it!!!

Edited for syntax error.

RNCHSN · June 25, 2003 5:08PM

It's illegal to sell them with the INTENT to defraud! INTENT is the key here.

It's illegal to PRODUCE them now without the word COPY stamped across one surface. Producing them NOW is the key here.

It's not illegal to own, or sell older fakes that are NOT marked as copies, as long as there is no INTENT to DEFRAUD.

If there is suddenly a collectable demand for unmarked copies, the prices will rise, and sellers will make a profit. This is also NOT illegal. It is free enterprise! If you are selling them as fakes, to people who are looking to buy fakes, there is no intent to defraud, and no crime committed. (people collect stamps, coins, toys, and ball bearings, why not fake coins?)

Laws are created that make it illegal to perform proscribed acts. Laws are generally NOT created to make an activity legal, unless it has been previously proscribed. If there is NOT a law specifically written against it, it's probably NOT illegal, regardless of how the proffessional/collecting community at large may feel about it.

Just like it's not illegal for ACG to grade coins the way they do. None of us like it, but we cannot PROVE any intent to defraud.

Robgetty · June 25, 2003 5:09PM

God, I love living in a country where we can all be reading from the
same law books and come to different conclusions. (But since you
always read about the Supreme Court ruling 5-4 on issues, I guess
that we are just runnning to par. If the Supreme Court cannot agree
unanimously on a major issue, I doubt if we will have consensus here
on the PCGS boards!)

(As a side note on irony, I always enjoyed driving past the people having
their twice a year protests at the submarine base where I was stationed,
since I was protecting their right to protest my existance!)

JohnZ · June 25, 2003 5:41PM

Robgetty: GO NAVY!

DrWho · June 25, 2003 10:26PM

i think it illegal also.

the real sad part, as you are all aware, is that some good meaning COLLECTOR, downwind at the end of the buy chain, is going to be very unhappy. this krap is going to circulate on ebay, and elseware, for a while. good way to turn off a COLLECTOR, novice or otherwise. hurts ebay sellers and buyers alike. kills a COLLECTOR.

ScarsdaleCoin · June 25, 2003 10:54PM

Wow...the point is they will end up in the wrong hands...maybe a week from now, maybe 5 years from now...but they should not be allowed...I care about letting stuff like this getting on the market and am going to try ebay to have it shut down...wish me luck

ScarsdaleCoin · June 25, 2003 11:18PM

Its reported to ebay 9:15 am EST 6/26/03 lets see what happens, will post if they answer

ScarsdaleCoin · June 25, 2003 11:19PM

here is the instant reply .....

Thank you for your report.

We would like to let you know that we have received your email and we
will thoroughly investigate the information you have provided. Please
keep in mind that the actions taken on a specific listing are
confidential and between eBay and the seller. We will not be able to
keep you abreast of any developments for privacy reasons, but we assure
you that we will thoroughly examine this information.

If you believe an item is potentially infringing and it was not removed
by eBay, we encourage you to contact the rights owner and inform them of
the alleged infringement. Rights owners may request the removal of
listings they feel infringe upon their rights through eBay's Verified
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If you would like to see information provided by the rights owners about
items that may infringe their rights and how to contact them, please
visit our list of VeRO Program participant About Me pages.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

If you are a rights owner and would like more information regarding the
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http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/programs-vero-ov.html

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The eBay Community Watch Team

I Thought it was Illegal to Sell These

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