The odds of the bolt drops exactly where they should start and end on the corn stack mimicking leaves, TWICE are galactic.
——
Yet dcarr,who runs his own mint, is “certain” that the marks are incidental.
—-
This argument has been going on for 21 years now - it’s old enough to drink!!
Two exacting examples not crossing into other design elements make me think man made.
@dcarr reproduction seems to have a bit more going on at the bottom of the screw used.
Would like to see him do it again and stay within the lines of a letter or design.
Just seems too perfect to be random and not cross over into other elements. Or their could be a perfect explanation only an engraver could explain.
.
The "low leaf" version does cross over to other elements. At the right end, it crosses over another leaf. The way these arcs are formed is consistent with an impact on the die face after the die had been hubbed.
@CaptHenway said:
I respectfully believe that the occurrences of these and multiple other circles or arcs over the years (circle around the tiny Lincoln on the reverse of the LMC; arc under the ear on a Roosevelt dime) have been too perfectly placed to be random and/or incidental. MOO.
I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?
TD
What we don't know is, how often do these types of arcs get onto dies. We know of a few cases because of the observed coins. In these instances, the defects look like they are part of the design. If hundreds of these defects have been accidental, a few could be positioned (by chance) in such a way to get past the inspectors.
Sorry to keep beating this drum. I guess it's just an easy or intriguing subject to talk about.
Agree with your above.
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
Wouldn't you think some key (respected) players in the numismatic community (someone like yourself for instance) have access or connections to key gov't/treasury officials, mint officials or TPG'ers, to run something like this to ground?...and get to the bottom of it.........not just 24/7 speculation?
I'm not talking about classic coins that were minted decades ago, with no access to current day mint employees. I'm just talking about a handful of today's modern variety coins.
Or maybe the powers-to-be are within the sound of my voice, monitoring this forum and laughing! 🤣 Maybe this was the intended affect all along........ It's working, we're talking about it. 👍
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?
TD
Someone once came up with this acronym and term. I don't recall who it was.
I think that we need a new name for a new class of "Unauthorized, Mint Personnel Made Design Additions." or "...Design Graffiti" if you prefer. I cannot think of a term with a catchy acronym. Any suggestions?
TD
Someone once came up with this acronym and term. I don't recall who it was.
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' record and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
Happy Thanksgiving . That includes the Denver Mint employee (s) that did the handy work on a couple of 2004 D Wisconsin State Quarter Dies now 21 years later on that famous Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. How time flies !!
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' ledger and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
Whatever it is, it worked. They got us talking about it. Which I guess is a good thing.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
@cladking said:
It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Another thing people may be forgetting is that these employees had to do this in plain sight of everyone else while dancing around cameras recording everything yet still they were efficient, precise, and exceedingly artistic considering their tools and conditions. While the bosses can't praise them, I can. Kudos!
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' record and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
.
I have seen no evidence that makes me believe that they were intentionally created.
I like them as "error" coins, and I don't consider them anything other than an accidental error or variety.
I would not classify them as an intentional "type" or intentional "variety".
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' record and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
.
I have seen no evidence that makes me believe that they were intentionally created.
I like them as "error" coins, and I don't consider them anything other than an accidental error or variety.
I would not classify them as an intentional "type" or intentional "variety".
.
I have never been a fan of these, but they exist. As I said elsewhere, the placements of these, the rings around Lincoln (on the reverse) and below Roosevelt’s ear are too calculated to NOT be intentional. In my opinion, they are not “errors.”
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," due out late 2025.
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' record and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
.
I have seen no evidence that makes me believe that they were intentionally created.
I like them as "error" coins, and I don't consider them anything other than an accidental error or variety.
I would not classify them as an intentional "type" or intentional "variety".
.
One of the reports said someone started his press when he went to lunch. It was said he was aware of the fault and shut the press down. Of course you believe these can be the result of chance and, of course, you're right. You have a lot of experience and see stranger things. I see an artistic hand with a hammer and crude chisel. The US mint has lots of damaged dies and few others escape because they tend to get noticed. These could almost sneak through!
Obviously, the facts don't say there was necessarily any conspiracy but the odds kindda do. It could be as simple as "Hey, Jack, would you go start press 3?" said by the die carver.
Comments
.
The "low leaf" version does cross over to other elements. At the right end, it crosses over another leaf. The way these arcs are formed is consistent with an impact on the die face after the die had been hubbed.
Sorry to keep beating this drum. I guess it's just an easy or intriguing subject to talk about.
Agree with your above.
I'm sure the mint has more important things to do. However, what if it wasn't a defect? What if it wasn't accidental? What if the coins (working dies) had been intentionally modified or altered from their original Congressionally approved designs.... Wouldn't that be a problem?
Wouldn't you think some key (respected) players in the numismatic community (someone like yourself for instance) have access or connections to key gov't/treasury officials, mint officials or TPG'ers, to run something like this to ground?...and get to the bottom of it.........not just 24/7 speculation?
I'm not talking about classic coins that were minted decades ago, with no access to current day mint employees. I'm just talking about a handful of today's modern variety coins.
Or maybe the powers-to-be are within the sound of my voice, monitoring this forum and laughing! 🤣 Maybe this was the intended affect all along........ It's working, we're talking about it. 👍
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Wexler - https://doubleddie.com/2397237.html
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
YES!! That's where I heard it, read it. Thank you @Steven59 👍
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Yes, we should certainly hope for a Congressional hearing on this crisis.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
The mint investigated and found no one culpable. My guess is they pretty much knew what happened and it came down to
horseplay with no criminal intent of two or more employees. It just doesn't matter any more because these coins are just what they are; "rare" type coins. They were produced intentionally at the US mint so they are type coins. Unofficial, yes, but they still exist. I'd just ledger a little black mark in the employees' record and otherwise forget about it which is probably just about what happened. It brought very valuable publicity to the states quarters program at just a time interest was beginning to flag. It was publicity worth countless millions as more people saved more coins.
Everyone came out ahead and the mint inadvertently released a few "error" coins which we define as "types" or at worst "varieties".
Happy Thanksgiving . That includes the Denver Mint employee (s) that did the handy work on a couple of 2004 D Wisconsin State Quarter Dies now 21 years later on that famous Thanksgiving Weekend back in 2004. How time flies !!
Whatever it is, it worked. They got us talking about it. Which I guess is a good thing.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Another thing people may be forgetting is that these employees had to do this in plain sight of everyone else while dancing around cameras recording everything yet still they were efficient, precise, and exceedingly artistic considering their tools and conditions. While the bosses can't praise them, I can. Kudos!
My AI suggests- “The Wisconsin quarter varieties weren’t just priceless publicity—they were covert artistry performed in plain sight.”
.
I have seen no evidence that makes me believe that they were intentionally created.
I like them as "error" coins, and I don't consider them anything other than an accidental error or variety.
I would not classify them as an intentional "type" or intentional "variety".
.
I have never been a fan of these, but they exist. As I said elsewhere, the placements of these, the rings around Lincoln (on the reverse) and below Roosevelt’s ear are too calculated to NOT be intentional. In my opinion, they are not “errors.”
One of the reports said someone started his press when he went to lunch. It was said he was aware of the fault and shut the press down. Of course you believe these can be the result of chance and, of course, you're right. You have a lot of experience and see stranger things. I see an artistic hand with a hammer and crude chisel. The US mint has lots of damaged dies and few others escape because they tend to get noticed. These could almost sneak through!
Obviously, the facts don't say there was necessarily any conspiracy but the odds kindda do. It could be as simple as "Hey, Jack, would you go start press 3?" said by the die carver.