What's the deal with 66 Saints?
Pedzola
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I have been looking for a nice looking and "reasonably" priced St Gaudens $20 in MS66 for my type set for more than a year. (1920's common dates).
There is a massive price divergence in CAC vs Non-CAC. A CAC coin is just plain out of my price range. However I have seen examples of nice looking non-CAC Saints that I would be happy with, and the population is huge, so I know they are out there.
Prices seem wild for these whether CAC or not. I dont understand who is buying thousands of 1924 saints for $4k+. (Maybe a slight exageration but it sure feels like this is the case!)
Anyone have any insight into this market? Why can't I find a nice looking non-cac 66 widget for about price guide? (Which, for example, is $2250 for a 1927).
Am I just SOL and the price guide is a fairy tale? Are people hoarding these? Appreciate any insight.
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The last time I was seriously shopping for Saints was the Jan 2019 FUN show. I too was on the hunt for an MS66 as a type piece and found all kinds at reasonable prices, low $2000's, but the MS66 CAC examples were WAY higher - high $3k to $4K! I looked at 8-10 MS66 (non CAC) Saints with my loupe and they were nice but I came across an MS65+ CAC that was the best looking among all of them and what I ultimately bought.
I have not researched auction sold prices since then, but I would start there if you have not already to see the real going rate.
I was doing the same thing for a bit. I still look, but that large price spread for MS-66 or 66+ does have me spooked, especially for the very common dates. I've seen some that are true knockouts, but at $2k more, they just weren't for me.
Should be very interesting how these will do in the long term.
10-4,
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Plenty of non-CAC examples trade within the price level you mentioned. Either you’re not seeing a lot of them or your standards are stricter than those of the major grading companies.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Maybe have a top numismatist look for one for you? There are plenty of them on this forum who would probably work at a reasonable percentage.
Interesting thread---thanks for posting. I can give you my insight. You mentioned the 1924 St Guadens and asked "who is buying thousands of 1924 saints for 4k+" First, there are not thousands being sold for $4000. PCGS has graded 9852 1924s at 66. NGC has graded 5453 at 66. CAC has only stickered 644 1924s at 66. That means about 4% (644 out of a population of 15,306) of the total population of 1924 MS66s are CAC. That is why they command $4000 plus---because you are talking about the very best of MS 66s.
I am definitely not seeing a lot of them. Maybe I am looking in the wrong places. I keep tabs on ebay. I dont have statistics but seems like fewer coming up and for higher prices.
I dont think I'm too picky. I am trying to find one that has a trueview, mostly so I can see the coin before purchase... most seller pics are abysmal.
Just as an example, this is the first trueview i found on google, and actually it sold for 2250 in 2018. I would be ok with something like this. In a perfect world something with a little color to it would fit my set better.
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Gazes, I admit I was exagerating. Clearly there are not thousands. But part of the frustration is non-cac asking prices in cac territory. There dont seem to be many for sale around price guide, despite it being a relatively common coin. (Or maybe i am just looking in the wrong places).
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I checked PCGS Coinfacts and it shows 3 PCGS 66 NON CAC coins sold in Dec and Nov 2019 for around $2000 (the CAC example that same month sold for $4113). Further two NGC 66 examples sold in late 2019 for just under $2000. A NGC 66 CAC sold for $3840 in 12/19.
I think if you watch auctions, you should be able to pick up a NON CAC 66 in the $2000 range but you may have to wait for a few months. But make sure you like the eye appeal!
None of my 66 saints are CAC except the 1923.
I prefer to NOT buy coins with stickers because JA tolerates more bag marks if they have that look that he likes.
Anyway...Click my sig line and see what I mean about CAC-Failure MS66 coins, 1924-1928 inclusive.
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(Yes...All 5 are genuine CAC rejects & under PCGS price
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I bought a P66 CAC 1927 Saint on the message board back at the end of 2018 for close to what Legend was offering wholesale at the time, $3500 or so if memory serves. That was probably a minor lull in prices. Sorry, no trueview. It can happen but it might take a long time for something like this to show up. You might try Great Collections.
Have you considered an attractive looking 65 CAC Saint?
I want one in 66, too. They’re nice at the 66 level!
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It takes shopping around and looking at lots of coins plus understanding the price structure.
Then do you want pay the big bucks extra money for CAC on a common date coin?
For me nice slabbed gold coins close to melt US or world fill the bill. Dealer next to me at show sold 35 NGC AGB over course of show. Impressive coins. From a major gold dealer for bought some nice $20 Pcgs 63 Libs close to melt.
Here is my take. 65 and 66 saints are the poster children for gradeflation. If one single issue brought about CAC it was saints. There are SO many over graded saints out there. One to two points over graded. Be careful
I’ve looked at 1000’s of saints box after box. I’m pretty spot on whether thie coin is stickered or not without really having to look but it took awhile
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'll bite
One is a CAC Pass at MS66 and one is not...Pick without checking.
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As I carefully and intentionally stated I actually need to look at the coins in hand. Grading by TV’s or online images is a fools errand or one needs to be a good guesser.
Personally I would pass on both of those coins based on the TV’s
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I like the idea of a 65 CAC in a OGH. If you look hard enough you can sometimes find 65++ quality in a 65 OGH holder. This was before plus grading
There are literally zillions of gem saints out there. One can be uber picky here
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I've messaged sellers on ebay on coins i'm interested in. If they give me a solid description on the coin, I'm more
likely to buy it. Sometimes the photo's are excellent and I buy on sight. One guy's description was like a Heritage auction one. Bought the coin immediately!
@ReadyFireAim you have some wonderful Saints. I wish I could find just 1 similar! (At the right price...).
I have never actually seen a 66 Saint in person. My limited knowledge and preferences are based on trueviews. Maybe I should collect pictures of coins!
Thanks for all the replies here, some interesting insights as usual.
I'll keep hunting for the right coin. Wasnt really considering a 65 since that wouldnt help my registry set at all, but I guess I should keep an open mind in case something really nice pops up. If anyone has any tips or leads feel free to PM me.
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The theme of the thread seems to be that you are looking for a common Saint that has great eye appeal in MS 66. Since they are common you don't want to pay CAC money for them but can't find ones you like at the right price.
Maybe one thing you can take from your search is that what you are looking for may not be as common as you think. My earlier post noted that only 4% of the total MS 66 population for a 1924 Saint has been stickered. Given the relatively small number of stickered Saints in 66 coupled with the large collector base may explain why it is hard to find a bargain out there. I am not saying this is a rare coin but it seems like a true solid MS 66 1924 Saint is much less common than people may perceive.
Good luck with your search....You should link your set here so people can view it.... Might produce some leads as well...Cheers, RickO
@Gazes I think you nailed it.
@ricko here is my set, "The Groogler" https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/era-type-sets/20th-century-gold-major-design-type-set-circulation-strikes-1900-1933/publishedset/174178
The name is sort of a joke for what was originally a quickly assembled set of whatever coins I first came across. Nothing particularly special. Lately as I've been upgrading Im trying to get nicer pieces of course that sort of have a similar look to them. The latest are my 2 $5's and Indian $2.5.
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@Pedzola.....Thank you... Very nice set indeed....I will watch for your upgrades and additions. Cheers, RickO
That's not a bad looking 08-NM & it looks properly graded at MS65 (You could maybe get a MS65+)
even though it's my least favorite coin in the series.
I approve
You did a good job without relying on a sticker for help.
In 1924, 1927 & 1928 saints, MS66 is a HUGE grade that goes from just over melt price to just under MS67 price.
As I found out, the really nice ones aren't so common at all.
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Interesting. Perhaps we are seeing a shift with regard to CAC previously pushing down the market price of non CAC coins and now instead lifting up their marketable value. This may be a natural consequence of an increased quantity of the CAC coins now out there,
So it would appear as more get stickered the huge CAC 66 premium will fall?
$2030 non CAC bid $3350 CAC bid on 66 saint per sheet - that’s wholesale. We’re I get a 66 stickered it wb out in tomorrow’s mail to him at 3350 if he is paying that. That is 65 pct for PQ? Whoa Pardner is market on way up? Yes tell me what’s going on.
My 2019-w 25c Lowell PCGS66 investment bought other day for $30 (PCGs MV $55) all of a sudden looks more bullish!
When one u guys buys cac 66 saint please post I want to see it. Saw one on the bay at $4600 / check it out. A 1908 Nm is $4675 and it’s OGH Wells Fargo! Giddy up and go buy it before opportunity lost.
I lucked out on this one I guess. Asked the dealer for a no-motto and this is the one he came up with. I didnt care for it at first actually, just looks dull and scruffy in hand. I sent it in for re-holder, and the new trueview helped me see that this "scruffy" look is mostly from the more textured surface typical of these older saints. So I have come to appreciate it more over time.
I would love to get a 1927 or 1928 to replace this in my set. Those seem to look nicer in general vs 1924's from what I have seen.
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