Who's up for a can of worms?
leothelyon
Posts: 8,498 ✭✭✭✭✭
The US Mint makes two kinds of coins, those for the Mint Sets and those for circulation. The question is; can you tell the differences between the two? I for one, understand they are using higher coinage pressure to strike the coins for the mint sets so.....there's got to be a huge difference showing in the amount of details the mint set coins have over the coins made for circulation. The US Mint also handles the coins for the mint sets with far greater care than they do for the circulating coins. This info can be found on the US Mint website. When the US Mint discontinued sand blasting the dies after 2010, PCGS stopped classifying the mint sets coins SMS and they also stopped or vastly slowed down the practice of issuing MS68 grades. You only need to compare the pops 2005 - 2010 verses 2011 to date. But I believe the US Mint is still producing SMS coins for the mint sets and that the majority of those coins grade MS68 and MS69.
Personally, believe it or not, I haven't pursued any of the dates 2005 to date for my Jefferson nickel collection because I know that I could fill those holes in a blink of an eye, so to speak. Because all those mint set coins look so perfectly made, they all look the same and they made 2-4 million every year. But don't quote me on that, I haven't stayed too main streamed on the mintages.
If this topic serves any purpose, I would like those who may of had more ambition than I, to add information and photos that may show those differences in strike details between the mint set coins and those coins made for circulation.
Of course, there's always the other side of the equation.......people who just don't care whether these coins are graded right. Are there differences that can be seen/readily apparent between the two differently manufactured coins the US Mint sends out? Com'on, collector community, speak up and make a difference/change in how your coins are graded.
What say you?
Leo
Comments
I remember the days in the 1980s when the coins in mint sets were terrible. I’ll take what the mint selling now over what they marketed then.
Unfortunately the mint puts out so many different things that it is hard for anyone to keep up with what they are doing. I do know that they handle the mint set coins more carefully than the coins for circulation. I have seen many Kennedy halves from mint sets from 2005 and forward that usually look MS65 or better. The finish was also a lot more satin like than the ones for general use. I do not remember the date in which they stopped making them for circulation and just for putting them in mint sets only but there is a big difference in the quality of the halves coming out of the mint sets.
I know in the Roosevelt world, the 05-11 are still better years to find nice mint struck(non-SMS) with the 09 being a very a tough date and is even tougher to find with FB/FT designated. Check out the prices for mint wrapped rolls from banks on eBay! I would wager that some of the Jefferson's from that era are equally tough, but they are not my series, so to speak. I will also agree that the quality of mint products has been top notch for the last few years, but still not perfect.
As far as I understand it there isn't any difference between mint set coins and circulation strike coins, save for the SMS coins. The reason for the grade discrepancy is that SMS coins are purposefully made in higher quality, while normal mint set coins are simply circulation strike coins that are placed into plastic sets before they have the chance to circulate.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
There really isn't a difference in the dies, but the coins in the uncirc sets are handled with much more care. You won't find a bag mark on a uncirc set coin, and the business strike coins are so sloppily made that it's hard to find a nice strike in the wild.
Here's the Mint's official statement:
What's the difference between bullion, proof, uncirculated, and circulating coins?
And BTW, uncirc and proof set sales have falled to around the 500K mark, which is why (I assume) the special coins are being included in this year's sets to boost sales...
I just realized there is no date on the Sacagawea Native American series. Too much to keep up with.
Uncirculated: The term “uncirculated” may have three different meanings when applied to a coin:
At the United States Mint, the term uncirculated refers to the special coining process used to make the coin, which gives it a brilliant finish. Uncirculated coins are manufactured using the same process as circulating coins, but with quality enhancements such as slightly higher coining force, early strikes from dies, special cleaning after stamping, and special packaging. Uncirculated coins may vary to some degree because of blemishes, toning, or slight imperfections.
Business Strike: A coin produced for general circulation (as opposed to a proof or uncirculated coin specially made for collectors) Hence..... SMS.
Strike: The process of stamping a coin blank with a design. The strength of the imprint – full, average, or weak – affects the value of rare coins. hmmm
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I was excited when I read the title. I thought it was time for a new CAC or grade inflation thread.
Interesting discussion... and according to the link above, there may indeed be detectable differences between the designated categories of coins. This could result in the generalized grade distribution referenced in the OP. Cheers, RickO
Sacs have the date on the third side @bolivarshagnasty, but think you knew that.
Someone could take 100 mint sets from year X and 100 coins from a couple original bank wrapped rolls, and submit them to PCGS without fanfare, and then plot the distribution of the grades to see if there is a statistically significant variation in the grades. Camp 1 would expect a binomial distribution, whereas Camp 2 would see only normal random variation.
To improve the accuracy of the sample, instead of taking 100 sets from a single lot, take 10 x 10 sets (10 sets from 10 different "dealers") to spread out the sample over a longer manufacturing run to eliminate a single die type result. As far as the "regular" strike, same process, take 10 x 10 from 10 different rolls, maybe some from "original" mint bags, rolls, and others, taking 5 from various rolls, all original, without "judging" which coins are taken from the roll. For example, take coins 5 18 21 36 and 47 from a series of rolls.
In a previous life, I used to run a manufacturing operation, and the material was processes in lots, each having 24 items, and each item had anywhere from 100 to 5000 "units" per item. Using a computer program, the items were periodically randomized throughout the process, to look for any process outlier, such as the 1st 2 units through process step 142 always had a lower yield, or units 8 - 12, lower left quadrant, had a higher yield through process step 37, etc. We used a Process Program called Spot Fire that analysed literally millions of data points searching for both positive and negative issues.
You can tell what condition the dies were in and how well they were cut. You can tell how well they struck the planchet, how well centered and whether or not the coin was handled well after strike. Mint set coins are struck by "new" dies almost invariably set well under increased pressure that usually results in a good solid strike. The coins usually get dinged up a little and then often scraped by the handling equipment.
It very much depends on the date but usually this is sufficient to accurately identify mint set coins even out of the packaging. Of course a few regular issuer coins will look just as good but for most modern coins these simply were not saved so regular issues of the same quality as mint set are quite scarce.
Quality was improved dramatically from '99 to '02 and the number of regular issues being set aside soared making it more difficult to accurately differentiate them. There have been spectacular Gems made for circulation but finding them is an herculean feat. Finding them in mint sets is like shooting fish in a barrel. Even the worst date mint sets will have .4% Gems and the best run up to about 7%.
Some of the other coins like '69 quarters virtually don't exist except from mint sets and the percentage of Gems from circulation that I saw back in 1969 was 0%. In other words it's quite possible all 1969 Gem quarters are from mint sets. By the same token there were no mint set quality 1982-P quarters so no Gem '82-P quarters are from sets.
Ultimately it doesn't matter where any coin originated. Trying to make Gems doesn't always work and not caring if they are Gem or not still makes a few. Older mint set coins must be removed from the packaging because they are being destroyed by it. Original rolls (scarce as they are) get busted up.
I did a internet search and found the following. I believe some are from mint sets and others are from rolls. Can you see a difference in the two types?
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection