How to determine if UNC, but weakly struck...
AstroJoe
Posts: 309 ✭✭✭
Need advice please.
Looking to tell the difference between uncirculated, weakly struck uncirculated, and high AU coins.
I sent a Peace dollar to PCGS thinking 55, maybe lucky to get 58. And it came back as 63.
I seen 64's that didn't strike up fully?
Sorry to offend anyone, but the best I have heard is when a dealer is buying its AU,
and when they're selling it BU.
Thanks
Joe
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Luster. The high points, even if weakly struck, will have full/unimpeded luster.
What if coin is toned.
Nickel is a hard metal, so I would think getting fully struck specimens would be rather difficult.
I've seen slabbed 'V' nickels 64 with curls looking flat, weak hair below the 'I' in liberty.
I have more coins I would like to send in to PCGS, but I want to be sure they are over MS60.
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Yes. Luster is really important to understand. Breaks in the luster will keep a coin out of an MS grade holder.
Most Unc. Liberty Nickels have a flat left corn and an incompletely stuck star 7. That's in all grades. Most 1911s, and 1912s from all mints have weak strikes per my first sentence, and also flat hair. If you see one that's in a grade you like which is fully struck, and don't have to pay much of a premium for it, buy it. They're scarce. My 12 P is fully struck, while my 1911 is not.
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"Sou Mangueira......."
The fact that you are asking these questions, and that you think strike and composition are grading factors, tells me you are on your way to becoming a smart collector. Good for you.
How often do we hear from haughty newbies who think the appearance of rub on an early federal coin automatically makes it AU? Or that weak detail is due to wear?
Take the time to study a series and learn its characteristics.
Don't begrudge dealers. Their business is buying low and selling high. So naturally they will play down purchases and promote sales. Your knowledge will protect you.
Lance.
"Take the time to study a series and learn its characteristics."
This can't be said too many times-it's of great importance. Same with luster breaks. Look at a coin under low magnification and under a good incandescent light and tilt and rotate the coin. Any luster breaks or dulling of the luster on the highest parts of the design should be visible,.
Great questions.... good to see this, you are on the right track. Information given above is excellent... If you have a piece that is really questionable - in your opinion - try posting a picture here.. you will get some good feedback. Cheers, RickO
Peace dollars are the most undergraded coin by non-professionals. They most always provide a surprise to their owner.
If you understand what is coming, then you can duck. If not, then you get sucker-punched. - Martin Armstrong
For me, telling a weak strike from wear starts with understanding the minting process.
Planchet preparation will show a certain look of tiny "hits" that on a weak strike won't be fully struck out. Wear will tend to be smoother.
This May or may not come into play depending on your series but seems to be the case on Nickles and cents.
Maybe google weak strike coin images to get a feel for what's going on in the series your looking at. There are some seriously weak struck coins out there that are gradeable that can give you a good idea of what's going on.
"The fact that you are asking these questions, and that you think strike and composition are grading factors, tells me you are on your way to becoming a smart collector. Good for you."
Ditto
In my experience, the question you have asked is an important consideration for graders. It can be very involved and takes quite a bit of time to cover all the bases in a grading seminar. Let me pass on some things I've learned.
@cameonut2011 said: "Luster. The high points, even if weakly struck, will have full/unimpeded luster."
This is very important and the key to AU/BU coins. Learn what an original surface on the high points of the type of coins you collect looks like. You can do this best by examining coins in slabs graded MS-65 and above. The only thing I will add to the quote above is this:
The original Mint State luster on a weakly struck coin looks completely different from the luster on the rest of a BU coin as that part of the planchet did not fill the die. If you wish to learn much quicker, examine a totally original, flatly struck 1884-O Morgan dollar in an MS-64 slab using a fluorescent desk light in a dark room. This type of light removes all the glare from a coin so that you can actually see its surface.
@ldhair said: "Yes. Luster is really important to understand. Breaks in the luster will keep a coin out of an MS grade holder."
This statement can be confusing to a beginner. Imagine the frosty luster on a flat surface. Anything that happens to that surface will disturb the luster, A "luster break" is generally a hit (or struck thru). The original luster can also be ruined (broken) by friction wear or mishandling. Both of these disturbances of the luster look different. What I'm saying is "luster break" is generally not used to describe rub or friction wear from circulation or mishandling.
@koynekwest said: "Look at a coin under low magnification and under a good incandescent light and tilt and rotate the coin. Any luster breaks or dulling of the luster on the highest parts of the design should be visible,"
Incandescent light hides minor friction. Try the same thing using fluorescent light and you will be amazed! The only type of light to use when looking for ANY disturbance in a coin's luster is fluorescent light. That's why it is not recommended by anyone except for one professional numismatist/instructor I know of. When using this type of light ALMOST EVERYTHING will look like it has "cabinet friction" so you'll need to learn the different types of luster loss (friction vs stacking) and how much loss of luster you personally will tolerate and how much the TPGS tolerates! Told you it gets complicated. Then you'll need incandescent light to best see the hairlines and marks.
@WildIdea said: "Planchet preparation will show a certain look of tiny "hits" that on a weak strike won't be fully struck out. Wear will tend to be smoother. This May or may not come into play depending on your series..."
Well said! Another excellent post.
Once you learn what an original surface looks like and what the design of a fully struck coin looks like you'll have no problem answering your own question. I've seen total beginners learn the difference between weak strike and friction wear (and apply it) in less than a half hour!
Learn the high spots where the metal doesn't flow except on a full strike. Most coins with wreaths have layered leaves. The upper leaves are the last place metal flows (bundles of arrows, etc. the same). If the metal never flowed there (weakness) then the next layer down has the luster. If the metal did flow but has wear, the leaves are flat in appearance.
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"Try the same thing using fluorescent light and you will be amazed!"
I never knew that-thanks for the tip!
I was introduced to this type of light while using a stereomicroscope during an authentication class. Let me be very clear, you cannot use fluorescent light exclusively to grade coins as it dulls out contact marks and hairlines. While they can usually be seen anyway with the stereomicroscope you'll need to watch for them and just as with incandescent light, the coin will need to be in the correct orientation. They will "pop-out" much quicker with incandescent light. Now, If you are as conservative as me, you'll wish to see "everything" on a coin. I like the fact that you are open minded enough to try something new. I recommend an OTT light or best - a double bulb fluorescent watchmakers adjustable desk lamp.
I want to thank everyone for your valuable advice. I learned more reading the responses here than I had before.
This is a great forum, with great people.
You all have my deepest respect.
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You will see these differences even more on "open collar" coins; those minted before the steam press was used (starting in 1828 on Half Cents, and about 1836 on most everything else). Unc. Capped Bust Halves are infamous for Unc. coins with weak hair, motto, etc., depending on the date and die pair. As long as these coins are weak in those areas, but their luster is not impaired, they're unc. Otherwise.......
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
@Elcontador said: "You will see these differences even more on "open collar" coins; those minted before the steam press was used (starting in 1828 on Half Cents, and about 1836 on most everything else). Unc. Capped Bust Halves are infamous for Unc. coins with weak hair, motto, etc., depending on the date and die pair. As long as these coins are weak in those areas, but their luster is not impaired, they're unc. "
Unfortunately, the number of Bust halves with original surfaces *is so tiny** that I can truthfully say that I can hardly remember even a dozen coins that had original (flat strike) luster left on their surface! So while I'll agree these are great coins to see strike weakness, the 1884-O Morgan I suggested is a very easily found example to see what the original surface on a flat strike actually looks like.
What year is the Peace $?
K
Weak areas can still have luster, but the luster will have different characteristics from areas that are struck. Depending on the series, an unstruck planchet may not be perfectly shiny or smooth. So you could see some marks or lack of luster on a freshly struck old coin.
It takes a decent amount of circulation to wear a well-struck MS coin down to AU levels (maybe not AU58). Even a small amoutn of circulation and handling will lead to some bag marks, contact marks, or something like that. You can look at the rims and the fields to see if the indications of wear on the rest of the coin are commensurate with what you are seeing on the high points. If the other areas are clear but the high points are weak, then you could be looking at a weak strike even if there is diminished luster on the high points.
Even if a coin has not been circulated, I don't think it would be 'wrong' to put it in an AU holder. Try to focus on the overall look of the coin and how it compares to the average Peace Dollar.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
My mistake, it was a 1923-P, and it came back as a 65.
I didn't think it was a 65.
But, my experience says Peace dollars are weakly struck.
If so, then fully struck pieces will bring a premium?
Add:
Of course, I am way better on circulated issues.
Sometimes on the conservative side.
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I have a slightly different opinion regarding weak strikes and luster to the areas not struck up. This is essentially a reflection of blank prep & sometimes they are very dull with ticks and mini-scratches that were on the blank PRIOR to striking.
I totally agree that it is sometimes difficult to tell the difference between soft strike and wear, so it is crucial to look at what I would call "tiebreaker" areas. This includes the high point of the rim & edges & I agree with looking at the fields carefully. Lower relief areas of the devices are also protected by that trait & are not as useful.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Have a dumb question:
are the above suggestions also applicable to Cooper coins?
And to coins with a lesser silver content?
If this is a "guess the date" sidebar question, I'm guessing 1921.
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@YQQ said: "Have a dumb question, are the above suggestions also applicable to Cooper coins? And to coins with a lesser silver content?"
Yes, yes, and sometimes. LOL. only kidding. Great question! The answer is yes.
I'm going to pull out the excellent info from member's posts above. They have all combined to take us inside a coin grading class taught by professional graders:
"Luster. The high points, even if weakly struck, will have full/unimpeded luster."
"Planchet preparation will show a certain look of tiny "hits" that on a weak strike won't be fully struck out.
"The original Mint State luster on a weakly struck coin looks completely different from the luster on the rest of a BU coin as that part of the planchet did not fill the die."
"Learn the high spots where the metal doesn't flow except on a full strike."
"Weak areas can still have luster, but the luster will have different characteristics from areas that are struck."
I am now looking for some BU flatly coins to image for you. I come across them every day but as yet I can't lay my hands on a perfect example!
Be patient.
Great info here
Yes as @derryb stated,
@derryb said:
I myself have some peace dollars that I think are AU but may in fact be MS.....I just don't have the experience to tell.>
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@1630Boston said: "I myself have some peace dollars that I think are AU but may in fact be MS.....I just don't have the experience to tell."
Why do I think you are just being humble?
Easy, Buy a frosty white Peace dollar graded MS-65 by our host. Study the surface. Note the only possible change of color is the shiny silver hits into the "white" frost. An AU to MS-62 Peace dollar will have some gray colored rub on the frost - easiest seen using fluorescent light.
The ANA grading standard guide is also a good source for information.
Have fun.
This shows the unstruck planchet on an O/C nickel with the roughness and nicks.
This shows the cheek of a Franklin with the tiny hits that were not struck out completely.
This shows the flat strike luster in the "patch" of weakness on the eagle. Note the color difference between the "silver" on the rest of the eagle.
This shows the "weak strike luster on a Morgan. Weak strike luster is original but dull and off-color when compared to normal original luster.
This shows a weakly struck Buffalo with a small amount of friction. It is an AU-58, yet the very slight rubbing + the lack of the design ever being present makes the coin look like an XF! Coins like this are hard to value.
Cannot lay my hands on a weakly struck BU cent yet. Before the Shield reverse, they were plentiful. I'll check the change jar. LOL.
Extremely interesting and for me very educational
thank you so far. I will try and lat this info over to Canadian coins and might bring it up in our coin club.
Insider2: May I copy and use your images for that purpose?
Absolutely! Let me know anything specific you need. I'm disappointed that I have not found a modern cent yet. The color difference is reddish copper to pink on the weak area.
Great responses. I will keep studying and studying high grade coins.
All my MS coins are TPG.
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