Opinions Needed - Jefferson 1942-D Over ???

BigDowgie · November 21, 2014 11:21PM

An interesting find by another collector. I have not seen it in-hand, but the pictures are pretty nice. This is a well circulated 1942-D Jefferson Nickel. There is something there, but what? Another D or an S????

TwoSides2aCoin · November 21, 2014 11:24PM

Looks like it's over an "S", to me. It's a sweet find, and likely a tedious search, I think

grip · November 21, 2014 11:29PM

Sure looks like it. D/S.

tincup · November 21, 2014 11:43PM

Does look like a likely candidate for a D/S. Is this a dime? I don't have my cherrypickers guide in front of me right now, so not sure if it's a listed one or not.

CaptHenway · November 21, 2014 11:49PM

Looks like PMD to me.

BigDowgie · November 21, 2014 11:57PM

This is a Jefferson Nickel.

PMD = Post Mint Damage? Please explain why you would say this would be helpful.

keets · November 22, 2014 12:48AM

my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin.

Overdate · November 22, 2014 1:30AM

At first glance it looks like there could be a rotated "S" underneath the "D", but the bottom of the "S" (below and to the left of the "D") is much thicker than the top (in the center of the "D"). I suppose a mint employee could have smoothed out the bottom portion to make it blend in more with the "D". Something like that was done to the "6" on later die states of my avatar to make it less obvious that two different sizes of the digit were present.

I can't quite see how post-mint damage would produce raised areas within and adjacent to the mint mark.

johnny9434 · November 22, 2014 1:34AM

<< my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin. >>

thats what it it looks like to me as well.

grip · November 22, 2014 1:40AM

A well place die chip inside the D, then flattened ?

Overdate · November 22, 2014 1:59AM

It's more than a well-placed die chip. There's the bottom of what looks like a rotated "S" under the bottom of the "D", and what could be the top serif of an "S" to the right of the lower right side of the "D". Too much coincidence to my way of thinking. Remember, this was wartime and quality control sometimes took a back seat to more urgent matters. It's plausible that one or more unneeded "S" dies were shipped to Denver after the Mint decided not to strike pre-war composition nickels that year, and a "D" mintmark was struck over an "S" mintmark intentionally (as apparently was the case in 1938 and again in 1955).

Overdate · November 22, 2014 2:00AM

BigDowgie · November 22, 2014 2:16AM

I don't see how PMD is at play here. I do not see how any post mint damage/striking would have caused the raised metal inside and outside the "D" so full and symmetrically positioned.

The owner is going to send it to James Wiles for his observations first. I'll keep you posted. It may make its way to other experts for their opinions.

ms70 · November 22, 2014 2:45AM

I think there's 3 mint marks there.

Clearly the D. Then what looks like the S. but inside the D you can see something that looks like it's running vertically through the S.

Maybe another D or a doubling of the D that's supposed to be there.

CaptHenway · November 22, 2014 2:46AM

<< my first thought was also PMD, perhaps something heavy landed on the mm and caused metal to be displaced which was then flattened onto the surface of the coin. >>

This.

WoodenJefferson · November 22, 2014 5:09AM

Deformation here...flattened and moved metal. I don't think this is an overdate at all. Will be interested in the pro's analysis.

gonzer · November 22, 2014 7:06AM

Way too much metal movement, I'm in the PMD camp.

tincup · November 22, 2014 7:31AM

On second look, that D certainly appears flattened... and where it looks like the bottom of an 'S' may actually be a light gouge. So PMD is certainly at play here... but still interesting that there is the clear bit of metal inside the D and also on the right side of it. Is there a picture of the entire coin?

DIMEMAN · November 22, 2014 7:51AM

I'm with Big Dog......I don't see how this could be PMD. It's a D/S with anything outside that could be removed at the mint...was removed.

Nice find.

grip · November 22, 2014 8:14AM

Interesting. And would like to know the outcome.

crazyhounddog · November 22, 2014 8:52AM

VERY cool!!!! Looks like a d/s with my eyes.

crazyhounddog · November 22, 2014 8:55AM

It gotta be a D/S !! At least this is what I see with my eyes. Very cool too.

stephunter · November 24, 2014 1:13PM

A 42 dated coin with an underlying S in that location would be something. Only one known?

lasvegasteddy · November 24, 2014 1:22PM

looks d/s to me too

TopographicOceans · November 24, 2014 6:39PM

I don't see the S so I'd guess PMD

CoinZip · November 24, 2014 7:32PM

It may help if we can see a photo of the entire coin too.... looks interesting.

JRocco · November 25, 2014 9:10AM

I'm in the PMD crowd also.

lasvegasteddy · November 25, 2014 9:13AM

so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah

JRocco · November 25, 2014 9:18AM

<< so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah >>

It actually looks like a D over the star ship ENTERPRISE if you really want to know what I see.

lasvegasteddy · November 25, 2014 9:25AM

<< 

<< so with 2 teams here
maybe we'll get some cheerleaders on the sidelines too...yes...no...?

go go d over s...oooh yeah >>

It actually looks like a D over the star ship ENTERPRISE if you really want to know what I see.

>>

where's notlogical with his spock avatar when ya need him right...

bolivarshagnasty · November 25, 2014 10:41AM

No way is the metal pushed up in the loop. Looks like a D over a rotated S to me. If
so, unique?

ricko · November 26, 2014 4:17AM

Looks to me like a die chip inside the D and PMD outside.... Cheers, RickO

FredWeinberg · November 26, 2014 4:48AM

The D is smashed, and the
metal moved or was moved
by the 'hit' into the middle of
the D.

It's a damaged mintmark, in my opinion.

BigDowgie · November 26, 2014 9:44AM

I still struggle with Mint Mark Damage.

CaptHenway · November 26, 2014 9:55AM

Wishful thinking does not make it so.

BigDowgie · November 26, 2014 11:59AM

I'm one that tries to see a logical and plausible way this could be PMD. How could a hit to this small mint mark create such a precise indent to the interior of this small "D" and cause metal to protrude up from what would be the flat field around the "D". All I have to say is h-m-m-m-m, what are the chances of that.

keets · November 26, 2014 1:48PM

How could a hit to this small mint mark create such a precise indent to the interior of this small "D" and cause metal to protrude up from what would be the flat field around the "D".

luck?? pure chance??

a line from "Snow Falling on Cedars" says Accidents rule every corner of the Universe, except maybe the chambers of the Human Heart and that seems very applicable here. I would suppose that when the collector looked at this coin he noticed that the mm looked unusual and checked it closer due to the D/Horizontal D Variety, then wishful imagination took place. as much as this date is looked at for the Variety the odds of a unique omm now being discovered are so astronomical as to strain credulity. there is ample evidence in the large pictures to bolster the PMD suspicion, marks which seem to indicate lines going toward the center of the mm and further damage at the top of the mm. whatever struck it was probably heavy and caused more damage than what we can now see. the coin circulated quite a bit and no doubt has worn down most of the damage.

JMHO, of course.

GrumpyEd · November 26, 2014 3:24PM

It's post strike damage.
One sharp hit in the center of the D lifted part of the lower curve up, a second hit sheared and moved metal and created the lower part.

BigDowgie · November 26, 2014 9:47PM

keets and others, I like the discussion and observations. keets, I even had to look up "credulity" to make sure you weren't throwing me an undercover insult!

I don't think I've let me imagination take hold here. I'm looking and listening to all the opinions and am not totally convinced either way yet, but still lean toward the RMP/OMM. Ok, let's take the path that there was one (or multiple, as one speculated) precise, hard hit to the mint mark causing this to extreme distortion of metal (nickel) to such an extent, I would have some expectation to see some trauma to the obverse of the coin near the "Y" and Star where the mint mark is on the reverse? Yes, the coin is well worn, but the rim and other devices appear to be quite normal. In my state of credulity, I just can't conjure up what object, so tiny and hardened, that could shape nickel is such a fashion.

bolivarshagnasty · November 26, 2014 10:13PM

Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. How about this logic? If the metal was displaced from the original D to cause the "appearance" of an S in the loop, wouldn't there be a parting line at the base of the possible S in the loop? In other words, with a high powered loop or microscope, can you see if the metal in the loop is flowing up as struck, or as others have suggested, shows a separation line where the metal was actually moved over to the center of the loop from the hit on the D? What say you Large Dowgie?

BigDowgie · November 27, 2014 12:02AM

Shag, you make a good point questioning how that center structure was created. Does the metal look pushed over or is the metal flowing up into the die. Another area to explain is the appearance of separation at the bottom of the "D" and the other structure protruding below. In my opinion, if a trauma to the coin with such a force to move nickel in this fashion, I would not expect to see the remains of a normal "D" outline in this area.

seanq · November 27, 2014 12:31AM

<< Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. >>

The number of people who have looked at mint marks on 1942-D nickels and not found this variety outnumbers the number of people who set sail for the New World and did find it by a factor of several million, but I am happy to know that you are willing to concede things like the earth being round when presented with irrefutable evidence.

Sean Reynolds

CaptHenway · November 27, 2014 1:31AM

WHat Sean says. The "extra metal" on this coin is so huge that if there were more like it out there somebody would have found it by now.

It will be treated by error and variety collectors as post mint damage until another one just like it is found. None just like it has been found in the last 72 years.

bolivarshagnasty · November 27, 2014 1:43AM

<< 

<< Yeah, The world was flat until someone disproved it. >>

The number of people who have looked at mint marks on 1942-D nickels and not found this variety outnumbers the number if people who set sail for the New World and did find it by a factor of several million, but I ask happy to know that you are willing to concede things like the earth being round when presented with irrefutable evidence.

Sean Reynolds >>

I have a lot of trust in the opinion of James Wiles and will concede to his findings. He has disproven a number of questionable "varieties" over the years including one I sent him years ago. Keep us informed Big Dowgie!

seanq, With all of the people who have looked at the 1942-D Jefferson mintmarks, what were the odds that I would find this example in the middle of the Georgia Numismatic show in Dalton, Ga. 9 years ago. Gave $50 for it.

BigDowgie · November 27, 2014 10:01AM

Shag, that was a dream cherry pick! They are still out there to be had! At a recent show in the area, I met a guy that pulled this big one also. He may have paid less than you did? My guess at grade is MS65FS! No joke! I'm waiting to see a new one hit the Pops soon, too bad it won't be in my set!

We'll keep you all posted on the opinion of Mr. Wiles. Thanks for the discussion.

silverpop · November 27, 2014 11:10AM

send it to PCGS and have them look it over

and then post the results

BigDowgie · December 14, 2014 3:46AM

Shag,

The 1942-D/Hor D graded MS65FS and it's the real deal! I'd still take your Cherry, if I was the finder!

No word on the 1942-D/?? Hope soon.

Shamika · December 14, 2014 4:30AM

Sure looks like a D/S.

georgiacop50 · December 14, 2014 8:24AM

<< a line from "Snow Falling on Cedars" says Accidents rule every corner of the Universe, except maybe the chambers of the Human Heart >>

Wonderful book! Ho-hum movie though...

keyman64 · December 15, 2014 10:26AM

Interesting find. I can clearly see it being PMD, D/S or even PMD with a die chip tossed in for good measure. There is only one sure way to settle it as far as I can see, unfortunately. Be on the look out for Mint State examples with the same characteristics. That is really the only clear way to quiet the PMD folks....then it will become an argument of only die chips and D/S. Good luck. It is still pretty neat and compelling to look at.

Treashunt · December 15, 2014 11:25PM

<< Looks like PMD to me. >>

ditto

Opinions Needed - Jefferson 1942-D Over ???

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