Tuition is a bit more than $110. If the coin was worth $1000 as a "solid for the grade" AU58, it is not an AU50 now, it is PCGS Genuine, (94) "altered surfaces." That coin is worth maybe 15% over melt.
I stated before that if I had paid $1000 for the coin, I would take the 15% hit and get back $850. The gold in the coin alone may be down $100 in the time this went on. (The purchase price and dates would be valuable information.)
3/4 of the value of this coin was the gold content all along. Melt is $660 now, so maybe the coin is worth $750 in its inaccurate (according to CAC) PCGS AU58 holder.
I am still puzzled why someone sends an "overgraded" coin to CAC. These are very common coins and there are 10 on eBay right now and probably at least that many in auction sites.
I view this as a sight-seen, dealer-to-dealer transaction even if I would not classify one or more of the people involved as true dealers. As such, the 85% buyback offer appears perfectly reasonable to me.
I haven't seen an answer to this question in my mind at any point in the thread although I may have overlooked it.
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Ankur: "I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. "
.......so why did you send it to CAC?
Ankur: "Fourth: I would not sell this coin at this point without disclosing what I know. Frankly it is not the right thing to do, and I would not feel right doing it."
......So you will probably get 15% less selling the coin with the disclosure, why not sell it back to Mike for15% less?
OK, I haven't read the entire thread, but here's what I think:
Illini acted in a completely honorable and acceptable manner, and Ankur has no legitimate complaint.
If Ankur wanted the ability to return the coin based on its not stickering (for ANY reason), then he should have negotiated that IN ADVANCE of buying the coin. He did not.
Ankur should "pay the tuition" in this situation. End of story.
I think a lot of people are missing the point here. I doesn't matter if the value of this coin is $1,150 or $115,000, its the principle. This coin was determined by a very credible source (CAC) to have been doctored. I once owned a $20 gold piece for only 15 minutes that I purchased on the bourse floor. Inside the building it looked clean, lustrous, and attractive. When I took it outside to my car and looked at it in different lighting, I was shocked to see a horrible grey gunk covering much of the coin when rotated at just the right angle. I brought it right back to the dealer table and was initially met with some resistance. "You bought the coin" and "We have already removed it from inventory" the guy was actually upset about it. I told them I wasn't happy with the coin and I wanted a refund at which point a third guy from their firm "Charlie" came out from around the corner and examined the coin. He said in front of everyone that the coin appears to have been doctored and I was promptly given my money back.
I know all transactions and circumstances are independent of one another but when a coin is determined to have been doctored its the responsibility of the seller to make good. Ankur already stated that he does not want to pass this problem onto someone else.
<< <i>I haven't seen an answer to this question in my mind at any point in the thread although I may have overlooked it.
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Thanks >>
Glenn, I did speak with John afterwards about the coin. I was told there is putty on both the obverse and reverse. My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural.
In regards to me being a dealer. Yes for over a year I did so on a part time basis. Last month I decided to take a break due to other priorities so I shut down my site and wholesaled most of my inventory. However I did stand behind what I sold. In one instance a coin I sold turned out to be altered, and I bought it back at the full purchase price.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was. Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you.
Dealer (seller) takes it back at full and a friendly meeting of the minds is reached to agree on a future item that suits both parties - and coin is sent back to PCGS? It has been said in here that puttied gold often comes back "restored with no loss in grade... Is win/win possible here? Both have learned a bit about putty (if it is indeed puttied). Shoot for sunshine
Eric
A coin that was of questionable color beforehand was bought at a premium for eye appeal and was also thought to be over-graded? I am missing something?
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was. Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
This $10 Indian reminds me of 2 of my encounters in the past with this same type of coin
1) I attended a coin show in Santa Clara CA and stumbled upon a truly truly beautiful virtually perfect $10 Indian in PCGS-64. The dealer was very proud to present the coin to me and said his offer price was $3400 firm. At the time, price list has the coin selling for an average of $2500 but this coin was not an average 64. I was thinking, thinking ... and thinking should I dip into my saving or sell some of my shares (stock) in order to buy the coin. I was just starting working full time and did not have a lot of money then (now I have more but still not a lot ) Thinking again and again and I ended up buying his other piece. A nice average looking $10 Indian PCGS62 for $550
2) Some months later, I bought through mail order with "Legend Numismatic" a $10 Indian PCGS64. The coin arrived and looked almost perfect. It was so beautiful with even yellow color, full rim, and clean yes very clean cheek. The reverse was absolutely gorgeous. The problem is it had a die crack (a long tiny line running on the obverse field. At the time, I was inexperience and did not know it was a die crack. I thought it was a line scratch or something and decided to return to Legend for a full refund. I got my refund alright but lost a chance to own a beautiful example of US Mint's greatest work of art.
Since then, I have not seen any as beautiful 64 as the 2 coins I had encountered. And the price today would be prohibitive for me.
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images. When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
<< <i>I would put everything on hold (both agree to this) send the coin into PCGS and let them have a look see. Provide tracking information to the seller and any correspondence from PCGS and then go from there with a rational decision. Until you have a definitive answer by the encapsulation company, it's only one opinion that the coin was altered. Let the company who certified the coin make it a consensus. >>
This is the perfectly reasonable approach. PCGS holdered and guaranteed it. Send it in for review and see what happens.
It may come back restored in acceptable condition. Or PCGS may invoke its guarantee and offer a buy-back price. Or it may come back "no problem found".
Now the cards are on the table and a resolution can be fairly reached. Lance.
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images. When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
Why not return it at that point? Why CAC?
Respectfully, Eric >>
If the color was original, I wouldn't mind keeping it as I liked the look of the coin. Now I realize that look was done through artificial means. Overgrading is acceptable to me in some cases. Doctoring not so much.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
Great question!! Ankur so far your answers do not pass the sniff test. I suspect you were totally surprised at the answer you recieved from CAC. If you thought it was questionable why not ask a gold expert for a free opinion. In this case why not send it to PCGS for reveiw instead? CAC can't refund you.
In reality I suspect you thought the coin was a great buy and simply wanted it stickered, you were totally surpised at the result. I have been surprised before it took me 3 months to figure out that I bought a bogus 32-d Washington and that is a series I know very well. The coin I bought was a sandwhich coin with obverse of a ms65 32-p attached to a ms 66 reverse Washington D. The coin was totally bogus as was the PCGS holder and I was lucky to get my 7+ K tuition refunded, thank God for Visa. >>
I remember that story - a real eye-opener so I'm glad you shared it and I'm glad you were made whole. It's good to have Visa on your side when all else fails.
obviously one of them is wrong........PCGS or CAC I mean. For instance you can have a green cac coin resubmitted and it go up a grade or more or go down a grade. So that means PCGS doesn't agree with CAC.
So now the question is, is the coin truly puttied? PCGS needs to get it back to evaluate that.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
My 2 cents ( on gold its as valuable as 2 zincolns that have been buried )
I have no issue with the sellers suggested resolution in fact it would make me very much more inclined to buy from such a seller. I think its a fair compromise to an unusual situation. Second why is the coin in question not already at PCGS to be re-evaluated? I trust PCGS a lot more then anyone else they have shown a real commitment to do the right thing in the rare instances they make a mistake. There needs to be confirmation that anything is wrong with the coin there has not been any satisfactory proof of that. With all do respect the 4th party that said the coin is altered just does not carry as much weight with me.
I think when 2 very experienced buyers-sellers conduct a transaction both are acting as experts and the buyer has to use great care and make a problem known in a short amount of time. The coin is not significant enough to have too much loss , the less then 200 dollar loss by the buyer is figured in as part of the risk when both parties deal in good faith in a transaction in my view. Hopefully we will know what the final result is on this situation. I see the seller in a very positive light as all things considered a reasonable solution was proposed.
As two past or present wannabe-dealers, BOTH the OP and the seller need to put on their big boy pants and acknowledge their responsibilities. And, invest in their numismatic education if they want to sell quality coins for-profit in the future, as customers depend on the expertise of someone presenting themselves as a dealer.
When Ankur, a current/former for-profit seller, saw the coin in-person and accepted it, the deal is done. Anything that comes to light after that is the buyer's responsibility, and should be considered dealer "tuition." This includes sending the coin back to PCGS on Ankur's dime. While you can ask the seller to pay for your lack of experience in this case, it shouldn't be expected.
However, Mike/Illini needs to recognize some of the responsibilities in selling "quality" coins. When you sell a coin, it is not just PCGS' name on the holder, it is yours. You bought the coin, put your seal of approval on it, and sold it. Your name in this business is only as good as the product you sell. Can you imagine Laura trying to cop out and not immediately buy back, at 100%, a doctored coin that somehow slipped past her? She would then be all over PCGS about that coin herself. Dealers need to look at each deal as adding to, or subtracting from, the name they are trying to build.
In all fairness, there are many things that could look something like putty on a coin. Some are natural, some are accidental, and some are downright evil. Without a Sniffer, it is sometimes impossible to tell one from another.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
<< <i>As two past or present wannabe-dealers, BOTH the OP and the seller need to put on their big boy pants and acknowledge their responsibilities. And, invest in their numismatic education if they want to sell quality coins for-profit in the future, as customers depend on the expertise of someone presenting themselves as a dealer.
When Ankur, a current/former for-profit seller, saw the coin in-person and accepted it, the deal is done. Anything that comes to light after that is the buyer's responsibility, and should be considered dealer "tuition." This includes sending the coin back to PCGS on Ankur's dime. While you can ask the seller to pay for your lack of experience in this case, it shouldn't be expected.
However, Mike/Illini needs to recognize some of the responsibilities in selling "quality" coins. When you sell a coin, it is not just PCGS' name on the holder, it is yours. You bought the coin, put your seal of approval on it, and sold it. Your name in this business is only as good as the product you sell. Can you imagine Laura trying to cop out and not immediately buy back, at 100%, a doctored coin that somehow slipped past her? She would then be all over PCGS about that coin herself. Dealers need to look at each deal as adding to, or subtracting from, the name they are trying to build. >>
This is an excellent post.
While (as I stated previously) I feel Mike has no obligation to do anything more than he has already offered to do, he certainly isn't going to be on my short list of dealers to seek out when I'm looking to buy gold.
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was. Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry? >>
Because the pharmaceutical industry has become an organized cartel not much different than the drug cartels in Mexico. They bribe physicians to utilize meds that have been replaced/outmoded.......and many physicians like attorneys take their bribes to the detriment of their patients and to the joy and success of their selves and families. And the pharmaceutical industry sells meds that cost pennies for hundreds of dollars......The pharmaceutical industry has totally controlled and overmedicated the practices of organized medicine. Attending medical conventions is exactly like attending coin conventions, except you used to be able to find raw beautiful original coins before the advent of "certification slabs". Sorry and don't mean to disparage or hurt any honest coin dealers feelings here!
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was. Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry? >>
Because the pharmaceutical industry has become an organized cartel not much different than the drug cartels in Mexico. They bribe physicians to utilize meds that have been replaced/outmoded.......and many physicians like attorneys take their bribes to the detriment of their patients and to the joy and success of their selves and families. And the pharmaceutical industry sells meds that cost pennies for hundreds of dollars......The pharmaceutical industry has totally controlled and overmedicated the practices of organized medicine. Attending medical conventions is exactly like attending coin conventions, except you used to be able to find raw beautiful original coins before the advent of "certification slabs". Sorry and don't mean to disparage or hurt any honest coin dealers feelings here! >>
So as not to get any further off-topic, I will not respond to your post in general. I will take issue with your statement that: "The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you". The seller claims (and we have no reason to dispute) that he was unaware that the coin had "issues" at the time of the sale. Clearly, so was the buyer. The buyer has stated something to the effect that the "color looked a bit off". Still he paid a premium price and didn't broach the terms of a possible return/buy back knowing the whole time that he was going to send the coin to CAC and might get news he didn't want to hear.
Furthermore, who gave CAC the status of ultimate arbiter? What if Ankur had shown the coin to Doug Winter, and he had said it "looked puttied". Would Illini be called out in that case?
Thanks for sharing these pics Mike... It sure makes a great learning tool for those who want non-doctored gold classics. Especially examples that show the use of putty that can be hard to detect, even passing through pcgs graders.
If I was offered that gold $10 Indian, or any other slabbed gold piece... I would've never payed more than wholesale bid on such a coin as sight seen, and 10% ~ 15% less for sight unseen, because of all these uncertainties. As of today, I still have questions on that $5 Indian (PCGS AU53) that I had bought a few years ago for my type set.
<< <i>This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. >>
Fortunate for everybody that you're here, then, to lead the way to a more civil and respectful era in coin collecting through assumptions and name-calling and- waitaminute... nevermind.
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation.... >>
Well said, the above response is 90% similar to what I think of the situation also.
My $841 bid on the raw 1907 $10 Indian has been surpassed on eBay with 4+ hours to go.
There is an off color area on the obverse, so I am not going to bid any higher, It is probably correctly bid at the current $851 as it seems to be an AU coin.
What is the possibly "altered" coin that is the subject of this lengthy thread worth?
Probably around the same thing. Without the "alteration" I would say it is worth $950, 84% of the PCGS "value."
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo.
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and remiburse the seller for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
There seems to be two schools of thought here. One that thinks 85% is more than generous and one that thinks 100% is the way it should be.
Is there a way where dealers in each camp could make their position more clear before the transaction so there are no misunderstandings?
<< <i>There seems to be two schools of thought here. One that thinks 85% is more than generous and one that thinks 100% is the way it should be.
Is there a way where dealers in each camp could make their position more clear before the transaction so there are no misunderstandings? >>
I've written that an 85% buyback is a reasonable solution in a sight-seen, dealer-to-dealer transaction. The key here is "sight-seen, dealer-to-dealer". I stand by this statement. It should also be noted that "reasonable solution" is not the same thing as "only solution". There can be more than one solution that is a reasonable solution and this would include a 100% buyback as well as any solution that satisfies both parties. Please note that none of this is written as what I would do since this has never happened to me and any statement as to what I would do would be purely hypothetical and might be viewed as self-serving.
<< <i>My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. >>
By your own words, you thought the coin was over graded and was unsure of the color being natural. You should have returned the coin upon receipt. The deal was done with the dealer you purchased the coin from especially from what you wrote in your original post when you said "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it."
You are the one that sent it to CAC and are responsible for any monetary loss if CAC is correct and PCGS is unable to help in this situation.
<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
That's worse than being overgraded IMHO! >>
Has there even be a time when CAC was wrong about a coin being doctored? Perhaps the coin is fine and it wasn't our host or the buyer or seller making a mistake.
illini420 you gotta stand behind your product. I wouldn't even consider buying from someone who doesn't do this. Do you wanna be known as the guy who wanted 15% to take back a puttied coin or the guy who stood behind anything he sold. This would seem to be even more important in dealer to dealer transactions. Now granted I'm not seeing it from the dealers perspective and maybe coin dealers see things differently than I do but do you really want that reputation. If I was at a show and bought a coin that turned out to be puttied I would certainly not expect to pay 5% of the cost to get my money back let alone 15%.
151 ! I can't believe I read every reply. This is now officially a zombie thread. I will add that I don't particularly think that either party has egg on him. Two well intentioned coin lovers. I enjoy posts from each party. Both have super coins and are long standing contributors. Where's the old chap beating the horse gif that we love?
Comments
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
an AU50 now, it is PCGS Genuine, (94) "altered surfaces."
That coin is worth maybe 15% over melt.
I stated before that if I had paid $1000 for the coin, I would take the 15% hit and
get back $850. The gold in the coin alone may be down $100 in the time
this went on. (The purchase price and dates would be valuable information.)
3/4 of the value of this coin was the gold content all along.
Melt is $660 now, so maybe the coin is worth $750 in its
inaccurate (according to CAC) PCGS AU58 holder.
I am still puzzled why someone sends an "overgraded" coin to CAC.
These are very common coins and there are 10 on eBay right now and probably at
least that many in auction sites.
example of the same 1907 Indian. At $841 from Blue Moon.
Question is would I rather have the coin I am bidding on or the
possibly "altered" PCGS AU58?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Thanks
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
Ankur: "I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. "
.......so why did you send it to CAC?
Ankur: "Fourth: I would not sell this coin at this point without disclosing what I know. Frankly it is not the right thing to do, and I would not feel right doing it."
......So you will probably get 15% less selling the coin with the disclosure, why not sell it back to Mike for15% less?
......I collect old stuff......
Illini acted in a completely honorable and acceptable manner, and Ankur has no legitimate complaint.
If Ankur wanted the ability to return the coin based on its not stickering (for ANY reason),
then he should have negotiated that IN ADVANCE of buying the coin. He did not.
Ankur should "pay the tuition" in this situation. End of story.
I know all transactions and circumstances are independent of one another but when a coin is determined to have been doctored its the responsibility of the seller to make good. Ankur already stated that he does not want to pass this problem onto someone else.
<< <i>I haven't seen an answer to this question in my mind at any point in the thread although I may have overlooked it.
Ankur, how do you know CAC didn't sticker the coin because of putty/doctoring?
Did they correspond directly to you as to this being the reason?
I have submitted over a thousand coins to them with a decently high rate of stickering, well above average and never have they sent an unstickered coin back saying it didn't sticker because of puttying. Two times they put a little sticker on it saying PVC but never anything else. Just curious how you received this information and from whom at CAC?
Thanks >>
Glenn,
I did speak with John afterwards about the coin. I was told there is putty on both the obverse and reverse. My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural.
In regards to me being a dealer. Yes for over a year I did so on a part time basis. Last month I decided to take a break due to other priorities so I shut down my site and wholesaled most of my inventory. However I did stand behind what I sold. In one instance a coin I sold turned out to be altered, and I bought it back at the full purchase price.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart.
Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you.
Is win/win possible here? Both have learned a bit about putty (if it is indeed puttied). Shoot for sunshine
Eric
A coin that was of questionable color beforehand was bought at a premium for eye appeal and was also thought to be over-graded? I am missing something?
<< <i>
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart.
Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
This $10 Indian reminds me of 2 of my encounters in the past with this same type of coin
1) I attended a coin show in Santa Clara CA and stumbled upon a truly truly beautiful virtually perfect $10 Indian in PCGS-64. The dealer was very proud to present the coin to me and said his offer price was $3400 firm. At the time, price list has the coin selling for an average of $2500 but this coin was not an average 64. I was thinking, thinking ... and thinking should I dip into my saving or sell some of my shares (stock) in order to buy the coin. I was just starting working full time and did not have a lot of money then (now I have more but still not a lot
2) Some months later, I bought through mail order with "Legend Numismatic" a $10 Indian PCGS64. The coin arrived and looked almost perfect. It was so beautiful with even yellow color, full rim, and clean yes very clean cheek. The reverse was absolutely gorgeous. The problem is it had a die crack (a long tiny line running on the obverse field. At the time, I was inexperience and did not know it was a die crack. I thought it was a line scratch or something and decided to return to Legend for a full refund. I got my refund alright but lost a chance to own a beautiful example of US Mint's greatest work of art.
Since then, I have not seen any as beautiful 64 as the 2 coins I had encountered. And the price today would be prohibitive for me.
<< <i>From the first post:
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images.
When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>From the first post:
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images.
When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
Why not return it at that point? Why CAC?
Respectfully,
Eric
<< <i>I would put everything on hold (both agree to this) send the coin into PCGS and let them have a look see. Provide tracking information to the seller and any correspondence from PCGS and then go from there with a rational decision. Until you have a definitive answer by the encapsulation company, it's only one opinion that the coin was altered. Let the company who certified the coin make it a consensus. >>
This is the perfectly reasonable approach. PCGS holdered and guaranteed it. Send it in for review and see what happens.
It may come back restored in acceptable condition. Or PCGS may invoke its guarantee and offer a buy-back price. Or it may come back "no problem found".
Now the cards are on the table and a resolution can be fairly reached.
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>From the first post:
<< <i>but since I paid a premium for the look the coin... >>
and from a later post:
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
This seems odd. Why would you pay a premium for a coin you think is overgraded? >>
The premium was paid for the color/look based on images.
When recieved on hand I felt the coin wad overgraded. The premium was paid based on images. >>
Why not return it at that point? Why CAC?
Respectfully,
Eric >>
If the color was original, I wouldn't mind keeping it as I liked the look of the coin. Now I realize that look was done through artificial means. Overgrading is acceptable to me in some cases. Doctoring not so much.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I never felt it would upgrade. In fact I felt it was overgraded. >>
So why send it to CAC? >>
Great question!! Ankur so far your answers do not pass the sniff test. I suspect you were totally surprised at the answer you recieved from CAC. If you thought it was
questionable why not ask a gold expert for a free opinion. In this case why not send it to PCGS for reveiw instead? CAC can't refund you.
In reality I suspect you thought the coin was a great buy and simply wanted it stickered, you were totally surpised at the result. I have been surprised before it took me 3 months to figure out that I bought a bogus 32-d Washington and that is a series I know very well. The coin I bought was a sandwhich coin with obverse of a ms65 32-p
attached to a ms 66 reverse Washington D. The coin was totally bogus as was the PCGS holder and I was lucky to get my 7+ K tuition refunded, thank God for Visa. >>
I remember that story - a real eye-opener so I'm glad you shared it and I'm glad you were made whole. It's good to have Visa on your side when all else fails.
Or CAC does. We don't know at this point
<< <i>PCGS needs to improve their game!
Or CAC does. We don't know at this point >>
So your suggesting the coin
may not be puttied?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
So now the question is, is the coin truly puttied? PCGS needs to get it back to evaluate that.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
I have no issue with the sellers suggested resolution in fact it would make me very much more inclined to buy from such a seller. I think its a fair compromise to an unusual situation. Second why is the coin in question not already at PCGS to be re-evaluated? I trust PCGS a lot more then anyone else they have shown a real commitment to do the right thing in the rare instances they make a mistake. There needs to be confirmation that anything is wrong with the coin there has not been any satisfactory proof of that. With all do respect the 4th party that said the coin is altered just does not carry as much weight with me.
I think when 2 very experienced buyers-sellers conduct a transaction both are acting as experts and the buyer has to use great care and make a problem known in a short amount of time. The coin is not significant enough to have too much loss , the less then 200 dollar loss by the buyer
is figured in as part of the risk when both parties deal in good faith in a transaction in my view. Hopefully we will know what the final result is on this situation. I see the seller in a very positive light as all things considered a reasonable solution was proposed.
When Ankur, a current/former for-profit seller, saw the coin in-person and accepted it, the deal is done. Anything that comes to light after that is the buyer's responsibility, and should be considered dealer "tuition." This includes sending the coin back to PCGS on Ankur's dime. While you can ask the seller to pay for your lack of experience in this case, it shouldn't be expected.
However, Mike/Illini needs to recognize some of the responsibilities in selling "quality" coins. When you sell a coin, it is not just PCGS' name on the holder, it is yours. You bought the coin, put your seal of approval on it, and sold it. Your name in this business is only as good as the product you sell. Can you imagine Laura trying to cop out and not immediately buy back, at 100%, a doctored coin that somehow slipped past her? She would then be all over PCGS about that coin herself. Dealers need to look at each deal as adding to, or subtracting from, the name they are trying to build.
<< <i>PCGS needs to improve their game! >>
For all you know they caught 999 out of 1000
Or CAC does. We don't know at this point >>
So your suggesting the coin
may not be puttied?
In all fairness, there are many things that could look something like putty on a coin. Some are natural, some are accidental, and some are downright evil. Without a Sniffer, it is sometimes impossible to tell one from another.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation.... >>
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>As two past or present wannabe-dealers, BOTH the OP and the seller need to put on their big boy pants and acknowledge their responsibilities. And, invest in their numismatic education if they want to sell quality coins for-profit in the future, as customers depend on the expertise of someone presenting themselves as a dealer.
When Ankur, a current/former for-profit seller, saw the coin in-person and accepted it, the deal is done. Anything that comes to light after that is the buyer's responsibility, and should be considered dealer "tuition." This includes sending the coin back to PCGS on Ankur's dime. While you can ask the seller to pay for your lack of experience in this case, it shouldn't be expected.
However, Mike/Illini needs to recognize some of the responsibilities in selling "quality" coins. When you sell a coin, it is not just PCGS' name on the holder, it is yours. You bought the coin, put your seal of approval on it, and sold it. Your name in this business is only as good as the product you sell. Can you imagine Laura trying to cop out and not immediately buy back, at 100%, a doctored coin that somehow slipped past her? She would then be all over PCGS about that coin herself. Dealers need to look at each deal as adding to, or subtracting from, the name they are trying to build. >>
This is an excellent post.
While (as I stated previously) I feel Mike has no obligation to do anything more than he has already
offered to do, he certainly isn't going to be on my short list of dealers to seek out when I'm looking to
buy gold.
The 15% fee is very reasonable.
If the buyer did not like the coin when received in person, that
was the time to make the return.
Sending it to CAC made no sense. It is a common AU58 gold coin which
the buyer stated looked overgraded in hand.
Nobody has stated the purchase price or purchase date. Gold has plummeted
recently. The gold value of the coin might be down $125.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart.
Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry?
Because the pharmaceutical industry has become an organized cartel not much different than the drug cartels in Mexico. They bribe physicians to utilize meds that have been replaced/outmoded.......and many physicians like attorneys take their bribes to the detriment of their patients and to the joy and success of their selves and families. And the pharmaceutical industry sells meds that cost pennies for hundreds of dollars......The pharmaceutical industry has totally controlled and overmedicated the practices of organized medicine. Attending medical conventions is exactly like attending coin conventions, except you used to be able to find raw beautiful original coins before the advent of "certification slabs".
Sorry and don't mean to disparage or hurt any honest coin dealers feelings here!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A question for everyone here about a somewhat sticky situation. On May 1st I purchased a pcgs gold coin from a dealer who is a member on these boards for my own collection. This was a type piece I have wanted for my collection, and was NOT for resale. When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it. However recently showing it to an expert, I was told the coin had putty applied to it which gave it a artificially attractive look. I did pay a premium for the look the coin had, and did not realize it was doctored.
I contacted the dealer about buying back the coin minus about 5%. I was told that he is not under an obligation to take it back, but would offer 15% back of what I paid. I thought about sending it to PCGS for their guarantee, but since I paid a premium for the look the coin had, they would most likely not pay the same.
So my question to everyone here is, what would you do in this situation? Chalk it up to tuition? Take the buy back and swallow the loss? Send to PCGS in hopes they can remove the putty?
There are a one thing I will not do in this thread, and ask you the same. I will NOT disclose who the dealer was unless they choose to disclose themselves. Please do not ask who it was.
Also just to be clear, this coin was NOT purchased for resale, but for my collection.
Ankur >>
This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart.
Too many dishonest people in this "profession".........I suggest you go into the pharmaceutical industry instead, they would welcome you. >>
Why the pharmaceutical industry?
Because the pharmaceutical industry has become an organized cartel not much different than the drug cartels in Mexico. They bribe physicians to utilize meds that have been replaced/outmoded.......and many physicians like attorneys take their bribes to the detriment of their patients and to the joy and success of their selves and families. And the pharmaceutical industry sells meds that cost pennies for hundreds of dollars......The pharmaceutical industry has totally controlled and overmedicated the practices of organized medicine. Attending medical conventions is exactly like attending coin conventions, except you used to be able to find raw beautiful original coins before the advent of "certification slabs".
Sorry and don't mean to disparage or hurt any honest coin dealers feelings here! >>
So as not to get any further off-topic, I will not respond to your post in general. I will take issue
with your statement that: "The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you".
The seller claims (and we have no reason to dispute) that he was unaware that the coin had
"issues" at the time of the sale. Clearly, so was the buyer. The buyer has stated something
to the effect that the "color looked a bit off". Still he paid a premium price and didn't broach
the terms of a possible return/buy back knowing the whole time that he was going to send
the coin to CAC and might get news he didn't want to hear.
Furthermore, who gave CAC the status of ultimate arbiter? What if Ankur had shown
the coin to Doug Winter, and he had said it "looked puttied". Would Illini be called out in
that case?
<< <i>One of the all time great topics, could be a forum category of its own..." Let's all discuss one of Ankurs weird coin deals.."
<< <i>This exemplifies why the current state of coin collecting is reprehensible. The seller readily knows he/she cheated and took advantage of you, insults you by not happily refunding your false investment, then you are too cowardly to expose his identity, perpetuating the fraud for other victims. What a disingenuous, group of low-lives you represent. Read a bible, and take it to heart. >>
Fortunate for everybody that you're here, then, to lead the way to a more civil and respectful era in coin collecting through assumptions and name-calling and- waitaminute... nevermind.
<< <i>A little birdie told me that Ankur was in trouble (again), so I thought I would come and help him out.
As usual, the story has some inaccuracies. First, the title is misleading. The coin is not "altered". That implies a level of doctoring and deception that is not present in this case.
Second, if Ankur wants to buy "big boy" gold coins like Indian $10's in AU, he should learn to identify putty and other surface contaminants. A dealer as smart and experienced as Ankur should not be deceived by a coin that quite obviously from the photo has areas of suspect coloration on both sides of the coin. Perhaps he should look at more coins and even find a mentor that could help him in this regard. Heck, even a dumb collector like me can figure this stuff out.
Third, as a dealer, Ankur should know better than to come onto a public forum and call another dealer out. What dealer in his right mind is going to want to do biz with Ankur after this fiasco?
Fourth, while the CAC opinion is a very informed and important one, it is not the be-all and end-all. If you liked the coin before the opinion and don't like it after just drop it in an auction and, oops!, now that the coin has been publically discussed and critiqued, perhaps we can find some bidder in Lithuania who has not read this thread and would be interested in buying it.
Fifth, is it just my observation or do some folks just naturally get themselves embroiled in more conflicts and brouhahas than others and what does it say about them?
Sixth, while the coin may not be original, it is not offensive, it is market acceptable, and I doubt that PCGS would or should do anything about the situation other than possibly ban Ankur from the forum (again) for violating several of the rules. Of course, the entertainment that he provides with his public gaffes would be a great loss to the community, but perhaps we could hire Krusty the Clown or some such joker to fill the void.
I hope that this post helps Ankur to find piece and resolution to this matter that may have cost him $100 or so but has severely injured his psyche. Illini did nothing wrong, an 85% buy back was more than fair under the circumstances, and at this point that offer should be withdrawn as the coin is not salable via normal channels.
Back to hibernation.... >>
Well said, the above response is 90% similar to what I think of the situation also.
There is an off color area on the obverse, so I am not going to bid any higher, It is probably
correctly bid at the current $851 as it seems to be an AU coin.
What is the possibly "altered" coin that is the subject of this lengthy thread worth?
Probably around the same thing. Without the "alteration" I would say it is worth
$950, 84% of the PCGS "value."
<< <i>
<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and pay the buyer
for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. I don't care if they've been a dealer before or are
known as a hot shot collector. The fact that I sold it is all that matters. There's not even a debate about this issue on a puttied coin imo.
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<< <i>Again, What would happen if the coin in question is sent to PCGS and they say its good? >>
Technically, at least three graders at PCGS have already said it's good... >>
Yes, but that was when the coin was freshly puttied and looking a lot better/different than it is today.
If I'm the seller I'd feel like an idiot for selling a puttied/AT'd/frosted/altered coin for a premium. There's no doubt I'd have to take it back with a 100% refund and remiburse
the seller for postage both ways. That's how I've handled stuff like this in the past. My mistake....my loss..........not the customer's loss. There's not even a debate about this
issue on a puttied coin imo. >>
There seems to be two schools of thought here. One that thinks 85% is more than generous and one that thinks 100% is the way it should be.
Is there a way where dealers in each camp could make their position more clear before the transaction so there are no misunderstandings?
<< <i>There seems to be two schools of thought here. One that thinks 85% is more than generous and one that thinks 100% is the way it should be.
Is there a way where dealers in each camp could make their position more clear before the transaction so there are no misunderstandings? >>
I've written that an 85% buyback is a reasonable solution in a sight-seen, dealer-to-dealer transaction. The key here is "sight-seen, dealer-to-dealer". I stand by this statement. It should also be noted that "reasonable solution" is not the same thing as "only solution". There can be more than one solution that is a reasonable solution and this would include a 100% buyback as well as any solution that satisfies both parties. Please note that none of this is written as what I would do since this has never happened to me and any statement as to what I would do would be purely hypothetical and might be viewed as self-serving.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>My reason for submitting was also because I was unsure of the color being natural. >>
By your own words, you thought the coin was over graded and was unsure of the color being natural. You should have returned the coin upon receipt. The deal was done with the dealer you purchased the coin from especially from what you wrote in your original post when you said "When the coin arrived, I liked the way it look and openly told the dealer I would be keeping it."
You are the one that sent it to CAC and are responsible for any monetary loss if CAC is correct and PCGS is unable to help in this situation.
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<< <i>Regarding CAC and the coin not passing, as I had said to Mike, if the coin did not pass due to it being overgraded, I would have no problem. But with the reason being doctoring, that is an entirely separate issue. >>
That's worse than being overgraded IMHO! >>
Has there even be a time when CAC was wrong about a coin being doctored? Perhaps the coin is fine and it wasn't our host or the buyer or seller making a mistake.
Jim
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I can't believe I read every reply.
This is now officially a zombie thread.
I will add that I don't particularly think that either party has egg on him.
Two well intentioned coin lovers.
I enjoy posts from each party.
Both have super coins and are long standing contributors.
Where's the old chap beating the horse gif that we love?