What is WRONG at the PCGS variety attribution clubhouse?? UPDATED RESUBMISSION RESULTS 7/31/18

georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭
edited July 31, 2018 4:59PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I have had way to many screw ups by PCGS in the past when it comes to them failing to properly attribute varieties.

But they suckered me in again with the Quarterly Special last quarter. Silly me.

How can it be that a coin that shows the exact same markers (in this case, die scratches) as portrayed on Variety Vista does not get attributed??

Yeah people make mistakes. But when they do and are shown that they goofed (ie. I send a coin that they failed to properly attribute to an variety expert such as James wiles and then RESUBMIT along with Wiles' letter attesting to the variety and only then does it get properly attributed by PCGS) should they not STAND UP and admit their mistake and refund the grading fees and attendant postage costs etc.?? that were incurred because they got it wrong the first time?

I know PCGS doesn't like to have these gripes aired publicly. But I have made plenty of phone calls to customer service and even sent PMs to the Prez, but nothing changes.

Very, very frustrating

And NGC is no better, I might add.

«13

Comments

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:
    I know PCGS doesn't like to have these gripes aired publicly. But I have made plenty of phone calls to customer service and even sent PMs to the Prez, but nothing changes.

    Very, very frustrating

    Same boat here. It's soured me to varieties and the registry in general. I don't pay for variety labels anymore, too much cost and hassle when about half the time they get them wrong, even the basic ones. My experience is specifically with Trade Dollar varieties. The calls and emails got me no where.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 16,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:
    I have had way to many screw ups by PCGS in the past when it comes to them failing to properly attribute varieties.

    But they suckered me in again with the Quarterly Special last quarter. Silly me.

    How can it be that a coin that shows the exact same markers (in this case, die scratches) as portrayed on Variety Vista does not get attributed??

    Yeah people make mistakes. But when they do and are shown that they goofed (ie. I send a coin that they failed to properly attribute to an variety expert such as James wiles and then RESUBMIT along with Wiles' letter attesting to the variety and only then does it get properly attributed by PCGS) should they not STAND UP and admit their mistake and refund the grading fees and attendant postage costs etc.?? that were incurred because they got it wrong the first time?

    I know PCGS doesn't like to have these gripes aired publicly. But I have made plenty of phone calls to customer service and even sent PMs to the Prez, but nothing changes.

    Very, very frustrating

    And NGC is no better, I might add.

    I know exactly what you mean. It's very frustrating! Every group I send in for attribution has at least 1 that is not done right. I check multiple times daily so that I catch it before it is mailed. I then call and tell them what is wrong and tell them what to look for and then they get it right. I don't lose any money that way, but is a pain to go through when they should get it right in the first place!


    All Dimes All Varieties

    Coins for sale

    Canadian Dimes Set


    Washington Quarters All Varieties 32-64


    >RIP -image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever<
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018 6:13PM

    It can be a difficult task to attribute coins outside of your speciality, especially if the published references are incomplete/outdated.
    It might be helpful for TPGs to use outside paid specialists who can assist by looking at photos, but could be expensive and would add time.

    It could be done independent by specialists using stickers, like Rick Snow does sometimes for Flying Eagle and Indian Cents, or see the other thread:
    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/998779/variety-slabbing-service-john-baumgart-has-a-cool-attribution-service
    But if your reason for using PCGS is for a die variety registry set, your best option may be to include concise references to published sources when you submit your coins, if they allow that.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 16,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @yosclimber said:
    It can be a difficult task to attribute coins outside of your speciality, especially if the published references are incomplete/outdated.
    It might be helpful for TPGs to use outside paid specialists who can assist by looking at photos, but could be expensive and would add time.

    Yes, but most of the time it is just matching a coin with a pic. How hard can that be.....especially when we have already given them the variety??!!


    All Dimes All Varieties

    Coins for sale

    Canadian Dimes Set


    Washington Quarters All Varieties 32-64


    >RIP -image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever<
  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 7,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018 11:46AM

    I wonder if they are hiring? There are several on this forum who have the attention to detail that their present variety specialists seem to be lacking.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude...


  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @yosclimber said:
    It can be a difficult task to attribute coins outside of your speciality, especially if the published references are incomplete/outdated.
    It might be helpful for TPGs to use outside paid specialists who can assist by looking at photos, but could be expensive and would add time.

    Yes, but most of the time it is just matching a coin with a pic. How hard can that be.....especially when we have already given them the variety??!!

    Exactly ! And here is the absolutely unbelievable thing. My submission included three examples of this RPM. They attributed one and not the other two!!

  • jesbrokenjesbroken Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭✭

    With no knowledge of the errors of which you speak and from only the knowledgeable members that truly collect varieties, I would assume that PCGS needs to get a more qualified crew to man this specialty service which they do provide and charge extra for. I don't mean to ruffle feathers as I was not aware this problem existed, but I think the dedicated PCGS customers that use and pay extra for the service deserve the same great services we have all become accustomed to from PCGS. JMO
    jim


    No one has ever had a plan to lose money in numismatics, monies lost is a result of not having a plan.

    Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.

    Everyman Buffalo Nickels (1913-1938) https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/album/166523
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2018 6:25AM

    I am putting pics up before somebody throws out one of those "this thread is worthless w/o pitchers" doo-hickeys.!

    Sorry about the rotation/orientation ---I am not a photo editor whiz-- only a variety whiz..

    First pic from Variety Vista:

    My coin that failed to attribute:

    Variety Vista reverse:

    My reverse:

    And finally an FS-501 that is the lead coin on CoinFacts:

    If you don't agree that these are the same die scratches, maybe PCGS will hire you!!

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've had problems on occasion but I find that NGC is much worse, not in failing to attribute but mis-attributing easily identifiable varieties. It's one of several reasons I will no longer do busness there.

    A good friend of mine who is one of the best variety specialists there is recently applied for a job at PCGS. Unfortunately he was not hired.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭

    what die scratch variety is in the cherrypickers? I have seen pictures in the cherrypickers that are different than variety vista

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 7,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018 1:09PM

    Those look pretty darn convincing to me! But is it in the CherryPickers Guide? ...but I am not on their payroll to make an informed decision. What is the date & Mint Mark? Does CoinFacts have a listing for this variety? If not...they won't attribute it.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude...


  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭

    This is Franklin 1957-D/D FS-501 Dave. It is not a "die scratch variety", but die polish lines are very often used as markers.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 16,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a 10 coin submission in right now that should go 10 for 10. Everything matches perfectly on all 10 coins.

    What are my chances??


    All Dimes All Varieties

    Coins for sale

    Canadian Dimes Set


    Washington Quarters All Varieties 32-64


    >RIP -image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever<
  • Sandman70gtSandman70gt Posts: 469 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2018 4:18PM

    @DIMEMAN said:
    I have a 10 coin submission in right now that should go 10 for 10. Everything matches perfectly on all 10 coins.

    What are my chances??

    0/10 is my guess.

    I just started a post/rant on my 1929 s merc ddo fs101. A no brainer. No attribution. Really sucks too! ms66fb, pop 0 and only 2 better.
    Coin facts:

    Phil's true view of mine:

    Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 16,662 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sure looks like a match...... how about the motto?


    All Dimes All Varieties

    Coins for sale

    Canadian Dimes Set


    Washington Quarters All Varieties 32-64


    >RIP -image Rebecca 2004-2018...If love could have saved you - you would have lived forever<
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 7,764 ✭✭✭✭

    John or I would be happy to attribute twenty-cent pieces. But, neither PCGS or NGC use the 'BF' attributions for double dime die marriages. Still, we would be more than happy to work with them.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • astroratastrorat Posts: 7,764 ✭✭✭✭

    ... oh ... and I would be also happy to assist with Overton varieties on Capped Bust halves.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    If I may, when were these changes you speak of made?

    These coins were graded in the last 5 days or so....

  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,074 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I submit for varieties I do two things:

    I note the variety in the comment field of the online submission form,

    I write the variety on a Post-it note and scotch tape it around the slab.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:
    This is Franklin 1957-D/D FS-501 Dave. It is not a "die scratch variety", but die polish lines are very often used as markers.

    If there is any damage on the mintmark, you will not get it.

    The 1959-D/D is an example where the CPG pic is different than varietyvista for the extra serif on the mintmark. VV doubling upper left, CPG lower left

    If they are using CPG as a reference, how can they tell if the pic is wrong?

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 14,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I have had issues with bust half dollars I've taken them to DW and Sheridan Downey at shows. The end results have always been perfect.

    I wish it weren't necessary but this is a difficult business and often experienced collectors are better informed than overworked generalist graders trying to go fast.
    Lance.

  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,716 ✭✭✭✭

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    Now, that's a stand up move. Any mistakes I have encountered have been handled fairly and quickly in the past on variety attribution. No complaints here.

    Doug
    The Ultimate Flying Eagles
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3203
  • BlindedByEgoBlindedByEgo Posts: 10,256 ✭✭✭✭

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    The Forum works and so does Mr. Willis. Awesome.

  • rickoricko Posts: 60,820 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great to see the response from Mr. Willis.... I am sure they now have a focus on the issue and resolution is in process. Good luck to all with the re-submissions. Cheers, RickO

  • woogloutwooglout Posts: 173 ✭✭

    I'm dealing with the same thing. Sent in for the quarterly special. 2 different Eisenhower varieties between 4 coins. The first 2 were naked eye pick-ups, the other were overmintmarks. The naked eye coins were attributed as the overmintmarks and the overmintmarks were attributed as regular coins, no variety.

    My obsession with checking my grades paid off as I caught the error as soon as my grades popped. I was able to call customer service and they put a shipping hold on it. The lady said a grader would take a look at it. Now I'm just waiting for the error to be corrected. Wish they could do Reconsideration also!!

    BTW - The grading standards seem to have REALLY tightened up in the past year. I had some coins I thought were LOCKS for 5+ to 6s come back as 4s. One coin I thought would go 6+ came back a 5. Either my grading has suffered or PCGS tightened up. Anyone seeing this in their specific fields, re: grading standards in the past 12-18 months?

  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,342 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgiacop50 said:

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    If I may, when were these changes you speak of made?

    These coins were graded in the last 5 days or so....

    I think a grader is gone as of late. I saw a former grader a couple weeks back and he was going back to help out.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • BarndogBarndog Posts: 19,726 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I still see PCGS getting small/large date and small/large 5C wrong on 1835 half dimes...and that is an incredibly easy differentiation.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,014 ✭✭✭✭

    I have a couple coming back now that did not get variety I thought they were. I will have to check again when I get them.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭

    Well I sent in the 2 coins again in the OP and they are in process. Only had to pay the postage to get them to PCGS. Now to see if they get them right this time....

  • burfle23burfle23 Posts: 300 ✭✭✭

    Just another comment on attributions- PCGS guarantees theirs, according to NGC’s written and posted guarantee, they do not.

    It is one thing to have a mistake on a label corrected at no cost, it is entirely different when you purchase a rare variety per the slab label and find it is not correct and be offered “down grading” it at no extra cost!

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,441 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @burfle23 said:
    Just another comment on attributions- PCGS guarantees theirs, according to NGC’s written and posted guarantee, they do not.

    It is one thing to have a mistake on a label corrected at no cost, it is entirely different when you purchase a rare variety per the slab label and find it is not correct and be offered “down grading” it at no extra cost!

    It's no wonder. They've misattributed more than a few for me. But that was 20 years ago-I haven't used them since.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2018 3:55PM

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    This response should probably be enough but I'm going to post as a fairly informed "outsider" who is a certified "cherrypicker" with several published "discovery coins" and a few I'm selfishly keeping mum about for now.

    I love RPM. MPD, DD's, RPD's, and tiny little micro "errors." Even "Flyspeck" Numismatics is popular and fun. It has been a LEARNING EXPERIENCE as when I first started as a professional, I had hardly any idea most of these interesting coins even existed. 1955 "double dies" as I ignorantly called them were virtually the only well-known coins in this group. While at ANACS I published the fact that 1869/8 Indians were actually 9/9's. The point I'm making is that I'm on your side and know what I'm writing here is 100% the way it was!

    While at ANACS and then INSAB my knowledge of varieties increased a thousand fold as I looked at every coin sent in using florescent light and a stereo scope (mostly at 7X). What you all need to understand is OUR passion is a long learning process. Much shorter (by years!!) for the new collector due to the explosion of information on the Internet and addition reference books and research by fellow numismatists. NONE of this was around for me. :(

    True variety specialists are just that. You know their names. When Coneca, and the Cherrypickers Guide came along, collectors knew more than most coin dealers and professional TPGS ex-dealer graders. In the late 1980's cherrypicking TPGS slabs was like stealing! B) :p

    Let me remind those complaining of some things [I'm with you, you pay for a service and should get what you pay for - at least on the second try]:

    1. When the top two services started, the professionals probably were at my level when I started authenticating/attributing/grading coins fourteen years before. IMO, that's because most dealers don't give a FF about most things you and I are interested in. They didn't even do 99% of the existing and published varieties that every other service I worked at (ANACS, INSAB, PCI ) routinely did!! When I joined NGC in 1998, it was the same thing except the variety guy got to decide what was important and what was not! For example, as I recall there are almost a dozen 1772 DD 1c. He only considered two were important enough to list. There are reasons for this. Doubled Die #1 of a specific coin is usually more valuable than DD#72! Slabbing #72 for us may eventually lead to some collector paying $$$ for $. Additionally, it costs time and money to attribute a coin. I can say for a fact that at $10 a coin my company loses money when I attribute a "micro" variety. Nevertheless, that coin is as important to collectors as the "microscopic RPM" in this thread. I assure you, unless a grader spends more than a few seconds on a coin he is going to miss it 98% of the time UNLESS the grader is a variety specialist.

    2. We should thank our lucky stars that the top two services are coming around to duplicating what has been the norm at the second tier TPGS.

    3. PCGS hired just such a person away from NGC. IMO, Jay is one of the top guys in the country.

    GOT TO GO...more later!

    Later: Missed my train of thought so I'll wait for comments. Suggestion: when you send in one of your "treasures" Xerox something to go with it an put the Att. you wish on the form. AFAIK, there is only one TPGS that will automatically attribute a good variety that the collector had no idea he had. Please educate me on this.

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 7,950 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ms70 said:
    When I submit for varieties I do two things:

    I note the variety in the comment field of the online submission form,

    I write the variety on a Post-it note and scotch tape it around the slab.

    How have your results been? Any misattrubitions?

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude...


  • ms70ms70 Posts: 10,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2018 9:43AM

    @oih82w8 said:

    @ms70 said:
    When I submit for varieties I do two things:

    I note the variety in the comment field of the online submission form,

    I write the variety on a Post-it note and scotch tape it around the slab.

    How have your results been? Any misattrubitions?

    No, everything has been great. I'm not counting the 1849/6 vs. 1849/8 Half Dime matter since that was a special case.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭✭

    I just sent one back with a printout from this thread, asking for PCGS to fix it. I'm hopeful they'll get it right this time.

    @Insider2, thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. The issues I've had were with some pretty obvious type varieties, obverse and reverse types for trade dollars. Even for someone unfamiliar with the series, these types are obvious and easy to attribute. For the less obvious trade dollar varieties, I've included documentation and a request to call me if there was any question. What I got back was the wrong attribution and no call. This isn't complaining, this is a call for a better product from the company claiming to be the top their service. I'm hopeful things will get fixed.

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DonWillis said:
    We've had some problems with variety attributions. We made some changes which we believe will correct the problem.

    Anyone with a PCGS coin that has an incorrect attributions can send them in at no charge and we will correct it. Please note the problem on the submission form.

    We apologize for the inconvenience.

    Don

    I am glad a Mod came here to explain maybe / hopefully the change came when this post started. I don't know I do know I have had to send back twice now coins for their correct labeling. To be honest I am OK with their mistakes as long as they will fix it. I know work is hard everywhere and while I work hard I know I make mistakes. But I always admit them and so far they have NOT fired me. I even had to go to management and ask to be transfered due to health reasons and age. So maybe they have a handle on this, probably not as there will be more mistakes but I AM GLAD THEY PCGS answered your post. I actually have 1 submission in right now being fixed. When I came here PCGS responded and started an Investigation which they did not have to do but Thank You for that too.

  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,426 ✭✭✭

    The "mod" who replied in this thread isn't just a mod... he's the President of the company!

    When in doubt, don't.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2018 8:03PM

    @OriginalDan said:
    I just sent one back with a printout from this thread, asking for PCGS to fix it. I'm hopeful they'll get it right this time.

    @Insider2, thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. The issues I've had were with some pretty obvious type varieties, obverse and reverse types for trade dollars. Even for someone unfamiliar with the series, these types are obvious and easy to attribute. For the less obvious trade dollar varieties, I've included documentation and a request to call me if there was any question. What I got back was the wrong attribution and no call. This isn't complaining, this is a call for a better product from the company claiming to be the top their service. I'm hopeful things will get fixed.

    AFAIK, up until - MY GUESS - 2016 (?) - No TPGS attributed Trade dollars by hub variety. I believe I've seen it on a
    slab somewhere recently. I'll bet the PCGS Registry Sets may include the Types (I'm too lazy to look :( )

    I I've worked at five TPGS and none of them differentiated Trade dollars by type and I was responsible for catalog updates at all of them except NGC. IMO, the reason for this was no one cared except me. Heck, Trade dollar specialists have discovered different hubs and combinations as far back as 1994 and no auction company, TPGS, or catalog even bothered to recognize them. One major Trade dollar reference, an encyclopedia, was obsolete even before it was published! Additionally, even the folks putting Trade dollar Registry Sets refused to acknowledge new discoveries in the series.

    Coincidently, this past Friday I opened a Redbook to look up a mintage for an1880 Trade dollar we received at work and noticed listings for a few hubs that were not in previous editions. It is a start; but until our customers and the reference books are updated to reflect interest I'm not adding anything to our catalog.

    True "inside" story. 95% of the time a TPGS goes the extra mile and gives a customer a free attribution they get a call that goes like this: What is a VAM? It says O-105 on the label, what is that? Is Breen#XXXX something special? No, it means your coin is a 1934-P nickel and you asked for an attribution. Unfortunately, that's the best we could do.

    PS I can see it now; 1876-S "Micro S" 2M/2M. Unless you are a Trade dollar specialist or a member of the LSCC you won't have a clue what that means! I know you do. :wink:

    Now @OriginalDan Are any TPGS services putting the hub types of Trade dollars on the labels?

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭✭

    PCGS offers a service to attribute varieties. We pay for the service. We expect them to get it right. Why are you making excuses and saying "nobody cares"? Obviously a bunch of collectors care about varieties, whether they're trade dollars or triple die Ike's. If they can't get the varieties correct they should cancel the option.

    PCGS was actually really good at getting the Trade Dollar varieties right up until about 2015 when something obviously changed. My guess is the person doing the varieties changed. Based on others' feedback in this thread, it wasn't only me or the series I collect.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭✭✭

    LOL, What part of NO ONE CARES did you miss? I'll try to be more clear and answer one thing at a time.

    @OriginalDan said: "PCGS offers a service to attribute varieties. We pay for the service. We expect them to get it right."

    I agree 100%. They should get any attribution the make correct. If not, they should correct it according to HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO HANDLE IT Additionally, you, me, Joe collector CRH, and all the little "coin heads" in the world HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY and NO INFLUENCE ON what any TPGS decides to recognize as a variety or attribute! Clear enough?

    @OriginalDan asks: "Why are you making excuses and saying "nobody cares"? Obviously a bunch of collectors care about varieties, whether they're trade dollars or triple die Ike's. If they can't get the varieties correct they should cancel the option."

    LOL. First I care. I've been attributing coins at TPGS's for just a few years. I'm DEFENDING my peers and trying to explain why some varieties may not be recognized. :wink: :wink:

    You can read what I wrote. Nobody cares about the minor varieties except "coin heads" like you and me. All the TPGS slab SOME varieties. Your example was dealing with Trade dollars. My reply to you was dealing with Trade dollars. NOBODY but Trade dollar collectors care or the varieties other than major DD would be listed in the Redbook and auctions. I believe you are a well respected Trade dollar specialist. I'll guarantee there are varieties in that series you never heard of because they have not been published anywhere yet! How can a service attribute one of those? As for things like TDO Ikes, DDO-023 and the like that a 20X lens to see....please read my earlier comments.

    I'm on your side. If I send a coin into a TPGS that is pictured and described in a reference somewhere (example: all the doubled die state quarters), any TPGS claiming to be #1 or #2 should attribute them. Unfortunately, AFAIK you'll need to use a second tier service for most varieties. As I wrote many times before, the big guys are on a learning curve. Just as the second tier TPGS's dragged them kicking and screaming into slabbing problem coins, eventually they will need to do ALL VARIETIES. I'll bet they will even slab counterfeits besides the ones they miss on occasion!

    The major two TPGS have come a long way since 1986. Remember there was a time they would not touch a token or medal much less attribute a non-Red Book variety. Work with them for change. As time goes on, and prices rise, I believe the major services will follow a trend as more Non-Specialist collectors become interested in varieties within a series. Then things will be the way you and I want them to be. :smile:

    @OriginalDan stated: "PCGS was actually really good at getting the Trade Dollar varieties right up until about 2015 when something obviously changed. My guess is the person doing the varieties changed. Based on others' feedback in this thread, it wasn't only me or the series I collect."

    TPGS's are a business. Trust me when I tell you that even with a charge for variety attribution, it's often a money-losing proposition. :( Additionally, NO TPGS is perfect! IMO, folks should only gripe when an error is not fixed.

    PS It's lucky for folks that I don't own a major TPGS. When I run into a "squeaky wheel" I remove it.

    Get my drift? >:) :p

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    LOL, What part of NO ONE CARES did you miss? I'll try to be more clear and answer one thing at a time.

    I disagree. I get PM's all the time from some new collector wanting to get into varieties. And 99% of the time, they're not even crazy.

    I agree 100%. They should get any attribution the make correct. If not, they should correct it according to HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO HANDLE IT Additionally, you, me, Joe collector CRH, and all the little "coin heads" in the world HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY and NO INFLUENCE ON what any TPGS decides to recognize as a variety or attribute! Clear enough?

    This thread has nothing to do with what PCGS decides to recognize as a variety. The discussion is about what they've already chosen to attribute, and getting that right.

    @OriginalDan asks: "Why are you making excuses and saying "nobody cares"? Obviously a bunch of collectors care about varieties, whether they're trade dollars or triple die Ike's. If they can't get the varieties correct they should cancel the option."

    LOL. First I care. I've been attributing coins at TPGS's for just a few years. I'm DEFENDING my peers and trying to explain why some varieties may not be recognized. :wink: :wink:

    Again, nothing to do with varieties being recognized, we're discussing the accuracy of attribution.

    You can read what I wrote. Nobody cares about the minor varieties except "coin heads" like you and me. All the TPGS slab SOME varieties. Your example was dealing with Trade dollars. My reply to you was dealing with Trade dollars. NOBODY but Trade dollar collectors care or the varieties other than major DD would be listed in the Redbook and auctions. I believe you are a well respected Trade dollar specialist. I'll guarantee there are varieties in that series you never heard of because they have not been published anywhere yet! How can a service attribute one of those? As for things like TDO Ikes, DDO-023 and the like that a 20X lens to see....please read my earlier comments.

    We all draw the line somewhere. Some don't care about varieties at all, some care about the tiniest difference between two coins of the same date. When it comes to trade dollars, I fall somewhere in the middle. I'm nowhere near the fringe of caring about the smallest little difference in date placement or mint mark spacing. I'm interested in major design differences, over mint marks, overdates, etc.

    I'm on your side. If I send a coin into a TPGS that is pictured and described in a reference somewhere (example: all the doubled die state quarters), any TPGS claiming to be #1 or #2 should attribute them. Unfortunately, AFAIK you'll need to use a second tier service for most varieties. As I wrote many times before, the big guys are on a learning curve. Just as the second tier TPGS's dragged them kicking and screaming into slabbing problem coins, eventually they will need to do ALL VARIETIES. I'll bet they will even slab counterfeits besides the ones they miss on occasion!

    This is an invalid point because PCGS nailed all of my varieties up until a few years ago. They can do it, with the right personnel. (I'm assuming the problem was a change in this personnel, I could be wrong about this)

    The major two TPGS have come a long way since 1986. Remember there was a time they would not touch a token or medal much less attribute a non-Red Book variety. Work with them for change. As time goes on, and prices rise, I believe the major services will follow a trend as more Non-Specialist collectors become interested in varieties within a series. Then things will be the way you and I want them to be. :smile:

    @OriginalDan stated: "PCGS was actually really good at getting the Trade Dollar varieties right up until about 2015 when something obviously changed. My guess is the person doing the varieties changed. Based on others' feedback in this thread, it wasn't only me or the series I collect."

    TPGS's are a business. Trust me when I tell you that even with a charge for variety attribution, it's often a money-losing proposition. :( Additionally, NO TPGS is perfect! IMO, folks should only gripe when an error is not fixed.

    PS It's lucky for folks that I don't own a major TPGS. When I run into a "squeaky wheel" I remove it.

    Get my drift? >:) :p

    I get your drift, and I saved them the trouble. I don't send in my coins for variety service any more.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2018 1:16PM

    I hope our back and forth is as amusing to the members as watching two B) keep banging their heads together several times as they keep reaching for the same nickel on the ground. :) Let's see how long it takes one of us to stop trying to get the nickel. :p

    @OriginalDan said: "This thread has nothing to do with what PCGS decides to recognize as a variety. The discussion is about what they've already chosen to attribute, and getting that right."

    My answer as above: "I agree 100%. They should get any attribution they make correct. If not, they should correct it according to HOWEVER THEY CHOOSE TO HANDLE IT Additionally, you, me, Joe collector CRH, and all the little "coin heads" in the world HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO SAY and NO INFLUENCE ON what any TPGS decides to recognize as a variety or attribute!"

    @OriginalDan stated: "Again, nothing to do with varieties being recognized, we're discussing the accuracy of attribution."

    I agree 100%. They should get any attribution they make correct the first time or correct their error. BTW, you brought Trade dollar varieties into the discussion. :wink:

    @OriginalDan continued: "We all draw the line somewhere. Some don't care about varieties at all, some care about the tiniest difference between two coins of the same date. When it comes to trade dollars, I fall somewhere in the middle. I'm nowhere near the fringe of caring about the smallest little difference in date placement or mint mark spacing. I'm interested in major design differences, over mint marks, overdates, etc."

    Yes, we all draw a line somewhere. Additionally, EACH TPGS has their own line. My line is extremely impractical!
    If I owned a TPGS we would do every freaking variety under the sun that we could verify and the customer requested! Back to that learning curve again...we all know of major varieties in different coin series that were NOT CERTIFIED due to the fact that the TPGS needed to see another example. :( So again, I'm on your side. If I send a coin into a TPGS that is pictured and described in a reference somewhere (and even an obvious one THAT IS NOT) any TPGS claiming to be #1 or #2 should attribute them.

    @OriginalDan says: "PCGS nailed all of my varieties up until a few years ago. They can do it, with the right personnel. (I'm assuming the problem was a change in this personnel, I could be wrong about this)."

    and also: "...I saved them the trouble. I don't send in my coins for variety service any more."

    It's best not to assume anything. There could be several other reasons. A PCGS representive has replied to your conserns above. I added my thoughts to this discussion because I'll call a spade a spade. I'll defend/attack ANY TPGS when in my opinion it is appropriate. That's how we can help IMPROVE them with feedback such as yours. As for your NON-solution to the "problem," - IMO, your collection is the loser. I don't think you'll be missed. o:)

    >

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 2,794 ✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    As for your NON-solution to the "problem," - IMO, your collection is the looser. I don't think you'll be missed. o:)

    Nah. My solution was quite freeing. I could give two F's whether the label says the variety or not. I enjoy my coins exactly the same amount...I know what they are. Cheaper this way too.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 8,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2018 1:21PM

    @OriginalDan said:

    @Insider2 said:

    As for your NON-solution to the "problem," - IMO, your collection is the looser. I don't think you'll be missed. o:)

    Nah. My solution was quite freeing. I could give two F's whether the label says the variety or not. I enjoy my coins exactly the same amount...I know what they are. Cheaper this way too.

    I understand how you feel and thanks for catching my spelling error too.

    PS congratulations on the promotion yesterday.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭✭

    As I said, I took Mr. Willis up on his offer and sent the 2 that PCGS muffed back to be looked at for "free".

    Well they still have not got it entirely right. They fixed one coin but not the other. I am disgusted.

    So now if I want the 3rd coin properly attributed I guess I will have to fork over MORE $$ and get James Wiles to write me a letter attesting to the FACT that the unattributed coin is indeed an FS-501 and then spend MORE $$ to send it to PCGS for a THIRD go at it.

    1 1 07664036 396192 1957-D/D 50C RPM FS-501, FL MS65FL
    2 1 81456837 86673 1957-D 50C, FL MS65FL USA

    Comments welcome. Especially from Mr. Willis. I would very much like to hear why this problem is ongoing at PCGS!

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 5,824 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The cause seems to be this: Someone bought crunchy peanut butter for the break room rather than the usual creamy style. This created considerable angst among the variety attribution group and they have been out of sorts ever since. Until the crunchy peanut butter jar is empty, there is little hope for change. Sorry. ;)

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 7,950 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2018 8:14PM

    @georgiacop50 One way to grab the direct attention of Mr. Willis (and any member forum name) is to add the "@" @DonWillis.

    This is unfortunate and is giving me pause on whether or not to request attribution when their team is having "difficulties".

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_



    BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude...


«13
Sign In or Register to comment.