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Please opine on this eBay listing of 1907 Saints HIGH RELIEF WIRE RIM

ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

Does it look genuine to you? Is the National Numismatic Certification as good as PCGS? The seller listed this very same coin again after the bidding ended sometime ago last week. I stopped following it after it reached $8000 so I don't have it left on my Watch list anymore.
It is highly unlikely anyone can "steal" this rarity.

Comments

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Thank you

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    ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound said:
    Does it look genuine to you? Is the National Numismatic Certification as good as PCGS?

    You're kidding, right????? lol

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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,334 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cleaned/polished. NNC holder may as well be a 2x2

    Collector, occasional seller

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    mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears genuine.
    NNC is a self-slabber.
    Consider all NNC coins as raw.

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    dcarrdcarr Posts: 8,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ex-jewelry

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    Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Circulated, cleaned, polished !!! :'(

    Timbuk3
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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @Paradisefound said:
    Does it look genuine to you? Is the National Numismatic Certification as good as PCGS?

    You're kidding, right????? lol

    I am new in all aspect of coin collecting and continue to learn from you all in the forum. I honestly does not know and I am not LOL at all.

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mannie gray said:
    It appears genuine.
    NNC is a self-slabber.
    Consider all NNC coins as raw.

    What do you mean by self-slabber?

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    mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    He slabs his own material, so there's no third party impartiality.
    "I grade my coin....mmmm....let's see.....MS68....sure...that's what it is....."
    He just slaps a grade on there...based on...not that much.
    His MS63 coins are usually only XFs, etc.
    So there's no added value to the "slabbing."
    Just (fairly) recently eBay forced him to black-out the grades on his slabs.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When a coin is sent to one of the major "grading" services, the first thing done is a determination of authenticity - it is real, fake or altered. Next, they assess the coin's level of preservation (i.e., "grade") provided it is not too damaged or abused.

    Self-slabbers are incompetent and can do none of these. They guarantee noting except buyer remorse.

    The pictured coin was, as Mr. Carr mentioned, probably once in a jewelry mount. It is badly abraded and worn. The MCMVII $20 is not especially difficult to find although it commands a considerable numismatic premium. This particular piece is not worth anywhere close to $8,000....possibly $1,000 to someone but few real coin collectors would spend that much for such an ugly specimen.

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    david3142david3142 Posts: 3,421 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 4:29AM

    Let’s not get crazy, @RogerB. As long as it is genuine (and I cannot confirm that it is from the pics), it still contains an ounce of gold, and is easily worth $1000 to anyone.

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 1:39PM

    If it is genuine, which I believe it is, it is probably worth $3 to $4 thousand as a filler. The thing about key date coins like this, it that there are not that many low grade and problem pieces available. There are collectors who will support the market for coins like this. Some of us might forget that there is quite a price difference between $4 thousand for somethinglike this and $8 to $10 thousand for a slightly circulated, but no problem, piece.

    BTW I call small time operations like this "Uncle Elmer grading services."

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones .... "Uncle Elmer grading services"... :D:D:D Excellent.. still chuckling over that ... how fitting. Yes, that was likely former jewelry.... those many fine marks are typical.... Cheers, RickO

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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭

    opine Verb, Pronounced "Oh Pin", Definition = Lingo for the word Opinion only used by member Realone & maybe an ALT.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 7:38AM

    @david3142 said:
    Let’s not get crazy, @RogerB. As long as it is genuine (and I cannot confirm that it is from the pics), it still contains an ounce of gold, and is easily worth $1000 to anyone.

    Without authentication we don't know that it is .900 fine gold. Also, the wear and damage might have removed a significant percent of it's metal content. The edge is hidden - was it reamed out to fit a bezel? Lastly, my reference was to coin collectors for whom a piece in that condition might be worthy of a less-than-metal offer.

    If the coin is approached from a purely collecting standpoint, then would anyone care to impound over $1,000 in that item? Is there any joy in owning it?

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    added pictures

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound said:
    added pictures

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,334 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:
    opine Verb, Pronounced "Oh Pin", Definition = Lingo for the word Opinion only used by member Realone & maybe an ALT.

    I used opine in a thread title as well and I am neither of those things.

    Collector, occasional seller

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    YQQYQQ Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭✭✭

    NNC ??
    you can call them grading geniuses or artists. they always manage to ,make a MS out of a VF....
    work out of a basement in Florida. A few years back I had a conversation about them with an Assistant AG or whatever her title was at the FL AG's office. they are aware of their deceiving "grading" practices.
    However, since their is no norm all TPG's would have to base their grades on, it is BUY THE COIN, NOT the packaging.

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jwitten said:
    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

    Yep. But from a coin collector position, that is all it is worth. Otherwise, it is just a small chunk of maybe-gold. "Laughable" is tying up $1,000 in that particular coin. :)

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :D

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:

    @jwitten said:
    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

    Yep. But from a coin collector position, that is all it is worth. Otherwise, it is just a small chunk of maybe-gold. "Laughable" is tying up $1,000 in that particular coin. :)

    Well, there are plenty of people, including me, that disagree strongly with you. I would happily pay a lot more than $1,000 for it, which means it is worth more than that.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 10:51AM

    @jwitten said:

    @RogerB said:

    @jwitten said:
    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

    Yep. But from a coin collector position, that is all it is worth. Otherwise, it is just a small chunk of maybe-gold. "Laughable" is tying up $1,000 in that particular coin. :)

    Well, there are plenty of people, including me, that disagree strongly with you. I would happily pay a lot more than $1,000 for it, which means it is worth more than that.

    That's fine. Good there are so many who are interested. I guess that reinforces the bid of $8,000. But, realize that "there are plenty of people, including me, that disagree" and would not want a piece of this ugliness in their collection, even at a bargain price.

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:

    @jwitten said:

    @RogerB said:

    @jwitten said:
    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

    Yep. But from a coin collector position, that is all it is worth. Otherwise, it is just a small chunk of maybe-gold. "Laughable" is tying up $1,000 in that particular coin. :)

    Well, there are plenty of people, including me, that disagree strongly with you. I would happily pay a lot more than $1,000 for it, which means it is worth more than that.

    That's fine. Good there are so many who are interested. I guess that reinforces the bid of $8,000. But, realize that "there are plenty of people, including me, that disagree" and would not want a piece of this ugliness in their collection, even at a bargain price.

    Fortunately it is not the ones that don't want a coin that's set's it's "worth", it is the ones who DO want it.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep. You're right. Buy it and enjoy it.

    After all, the OP asked for opinions. :)

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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Can anyone enlarge it enough to
    see if the Omega is there?

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    At A right price; It's a good "representative"

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ArizonaRareCoins said:

    @Paradisefound said:
    Does it look genuine to you? Is the National Numismatic Certification as good as PCGS?

    You're kidding, right????? lol

    Yea, just like a new Yugo is just as good as a new Cadillac.

    @RogerB said:

    @jwitten said:
    To say that is only worth $1,000 is laughable.

    Yep. But from a coin collector position, that is all it is worth. Otherwise, it is just a small chunk of maybe-gold. "Laughable" is tying up $1,000 in that particular coin. :)

    Collectors with limited funds dream about owning a 1907 High Relief $20 gold. If the price is within their reach, they will consider buying it.

    A few years ago a dealer on the national circuit had a Pan PAC octagonal $50 gold in a PCGS "genuine" holder that had been recovered from a wall of a razed building. It was very beaten up and looked much worse than this High Relief $20, but the asking price was $20,000. It hung around in the guy's inventory for quite a while, but it finally disappeared, presumedly sold. My point is if a coin is famous, a desired issue and has some rarity, there will be a buyer for it at much more than melt. Looked at the "no grade" 1802 half dime that sold for almost $100,000 a couple of years ago. Problem key date coins bring more now than I would have dreamed they would have years ago.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 2:21PM

    @jwitten I'm very curious. What do you disagree with in this post?

    @RogerB said:
    When a coin is sent to one of the major "grading" services, the first thing done is a determination of authenticity - it is real, fake or altered. Next, they assess the coin's level of preservation (i.e., "grade") provided it is not too damaged or abused.

    Self-slabbers are incompetent and can do none of these. They guarantee noting except buyer remorse.

    The pictured coin was, as Mr. Carr mentioned, probably once in a jewelry mount. It is badly abraded and worn. The MCMVII $20 is not especially difficult to find although it commands a considerable numismatic premium. This particular piece is not worth anywhere close to $8,000....possibly $1,000 to someone but few real coin collectors would spend that much for such an ugly specimen.

    Never mind...it's the price. Big deal.

    @BryceM said: "Looks to be devoid of luster with plenty of surface issues."

    IMO, Some folks throw the word "luster" around without thinking. I'll bet this poster is trying to say the coin has NO ORIGINAL MINT LUSTER. Nevertheless, it is LOADED with luster! BTW, the plastic case has luster coming from it too!

    PS Not an "Omega" fake.

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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @jwitten I'm very curious. What do you disagree with in this post?

    @RogerB said:
    When a coin is sent to one of the major "grading" services, the first thing done is a determination of authenticity - it is real, fake or altered. Next, they assess the coin's level of preservation (i.e., "grade") provided it is not too damaged or abused.

    Self-slabbers are incompetent and can do none of these. They guarantee noting except buyer remorse.

    The pictured coin was, as Mr. Carr mentioned, probably once in a jewelry mount. It is badly abraded and worn. The MCMVII $20 is not especially difficult to find although it commands a considerable numismatic premium. This particular piece is not worth anywhere close to $8,000....possibly $1,000 to someone but few real coin collectors would spend that much for such an ugly specimen.

    Never mind...it's the price. Big deal.

    @BryceM said: "Looks to be devoid of luster with plenty of surface issues."

    IMO, Some folks throw the word "luster" around without thinking. I'll bet this poster is trying to say the coin has NO ORIGINAL MINT LUSTER. Nevertheless, it is LOADED with luster! BTW, the plastic case has luster coming from it too!

    PS Not an "Omega" fake.

    Yup, strongly disagreed with his last sentence.

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 3:03PM

    @Insider2

    I don’t believe I’m guilty of using the word luster “without thinking.” You say it’s “Loaded with luster”.

    Where, exactly do you see that?

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM said: "I don’t believe I’m guilty of using the word luster “without thinking.” You say it’s “Loaded with luster”.
    Where, exactly do you see that?

    P-L-E-A-S-E :o This is really you, right?

    BryceM ✭✭✭✭✭ Joined May 26, 2011 2:12PM Visits 672 Last Active November 3, 2017 6:04PM Roles Members Points 1,777 Posts 5,792 Badges 30 615 Agree 809 Like 180 LOL

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/editor/hp/uadxidf23su2.jpg

    If what I post here is incorrect, may all my teachers, mentors, and fellow students rot in the hot place! Take a look at the image I copied. Half of it is darker than the other half. I was taught that the bright reflection of light coming from the top half of the image is called "LUSTER."

    I was also taught that cleaned coins, whizzed coins, and polished coins all reflect light with a specific type of luster. Original Mint luster on our coins differs in its appearance from these examples.

    I know you know this and you are pulling my leg. I took the "bait" because I'm sure some folks reading this may not know about original mint LUSTER and other types of LUSTER such as the shiny "luster" on the corners of the OP's plastic slab. o:)

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    ArizonaRareCoinsArizonaRareCoins Posts: 679 ✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound said:
    At A right price; It's a good "representative"

    Therein lies the rub.......what is the right price?????? $3500?

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    logger7logger7 Posts: 8,084 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was doing a quick search for this one and a 1907 $20 arabic sold for under a thousand, legit?? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1907-ST-Gaudens-20-gold-NGC-MS63-full-of-luster-/282719765021?hash=item41d369421d:g:AjQAAOSwxKBZ~Lwx&nma=true&si=TlbgX5%2FeO1pT7d%2BO9ZKS8JSV2iw%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    And apparently ebay allows pictures of non-approved slabs if they are not in the first couple pictures.

    I know a dealer who is selling a harshly cleaned $10 1799 gold piece in a PCGS holder for around $8K! Who wants an ugly cleaned coin?

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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2

    This seems like an absurd conversation (especially within the OP's thread) but I don't fancy accusations of thoughtless writing. Therefore, in defense of my position, I shall endeavor to state my case.

    When speaking of coins, we use terms like luster, strike, surface preservation, and eye appeal all the time. In the context of coins, luster is an important determinant of grade (and by extension value). The word "strike" can also have various meanings, but we all know that dissatisfied coins don't go on strike to protest their poor wages or work conditions. The meaning of the term is perfectly clear by context.

    I've looked at the photo you linked and I STILL don't see ANY luster, at least none that would apply to a numismatic understanding of the term. I see reflected light...... the distribution of which is of course based on the angle of lighting. Virtually any lump of metal can be photographed to show bright spots and dark spots. Most objects, theoretical black holes excluded, do in fact reflect light!

    If you take the OP's coin and show it to 100 professional graders and have them rate its luster on a scale of 0-10 you'll be seeing mostly zeros and ones. Therefore I said "Devoid of Luster."

    If you show the OP's coin to grade school kids and ask if it's shiny, you'll get plenty who say yes. Maybe you see it like they do?

    Perhaps it's silly of me to assume that those who visit this forum would automatically assume mint luster, the type that would be a determination of grade and/or value, and not some prosaic definition of the term.

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    thebeavthebeav Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes Arizona, 35 is probably the 'right' price. It's a coin I sure would LOVE at 25 !!!

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 5:59PM

    Seriously, thanks for your <3 reply as I see you are serious after all. I'll leave you with this:

    I understand and comprehend what you have written. I agree with virtually all of it - you should teach a grading class as you definitely have an understanding of the term "luster" as used by those 100 professional graders who learned that word on the bourse floor passed on by their mentors. This usage is also carried out by a few esteemed and famous (above my pay grade) dealer/authors in grading guides who also throw the word "luster" around with out explaining the term fully.

    I see you also understand the "technical" point I made - from the view of any grade school YN who can read a dictionary definition when you posted this: "I've looked at the photo you linked and I STILL don't see ANY luster, at least none that would apply to a numismatic understanding of the term. I see reflected light...... the distribution of which is of course based on the angle of lighting. Virtually any lump of metal can be photographed to show bright spots and dark spots. Most objects, theoretical black holes excluded, do in fact reflect light!

    Well, we call that "luster" and now you must realize how silly I felt your question was. I knew you really must know what the word refers to IN NUMISMATICS and also in Jewelry, pottery, painting, fabrics, etc. :)

    Unfortunately, I have found that a majority of professional numismatists either don't understand the difference between the words ""MINT LUSTER" and "LUSTER" or they are too lazy and assume everyone as knowledgeable as you know what those words mean.

    Finally this: I was fortunate to be able to read the unpublished galley pages of James Halperin's N.C.I. Grading Guide. Except for his "grading formula," I consider his guide to still be useful today. I've given out one every so often.

    Mr. Halperin defines luster in the way I was trying to convey to you and any of those 100 professional numismatists who never bother to differentiate between "luster from any surface," "luster from an impaired coin," and "Original Mint Luster. I'll quote from his book:

    "LUSTRE: The brightness of a coin which results from the way in which it reflects light. Many different types of lustre exist, and one of the trickiest parts of the grading process is determining whether the lustre of a coin is artificial (See "whizzed"), natural as made, or diminished through wear, cleaning, friction, temperature, humidity, etc. (Alternate spelling "Luster.")

    I'm very thankful I was trained by professional numismatists who assumed nothing. IMHO, the OP's coin is LOADED WITH LUSTER! In the end, I don't care if you can see it or not. I'm more concerned with what others can see. :)

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    BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2017 6:39PM

    Next, let's debate meaning of the term, "net grade", since not everyone thinks it
    means what MOST of us know it means, in the appropriate and relevant context ;)

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

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    BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,484 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coin looks to have been polished with jewelers' rouge. As such there is no real luster. It's an AU sharpness, net low end VF example, to set a market price.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    I was doing a quick search for this one and a 1907 $20 arabic sold for under a thousand, legit?? https://www.ebay.com/itm/1907-ST-Gaudens-20-gold-NGC-MS63-full-of-luster-/282719765021?hash=item41d369421d:g:AjQAAOSwxKBZ~Lwx&amp;nma=true&amp;si=TlbgX5%2FeO1pT7d%2BO9ZKS8JSV2iw%3D&amp;orig_cvip=true&amp;rt=nc&amp;_trksid=p2047675.l2557

    And apparently ebay allows pictures of non-approved slabs if they are not in the first couple pictures.

    I know a dealer who is selling a harshly cleaned $10 1799 gold piece in a PCGS holder for around $8K! Who wants an ugly cleaned coin?

    t\The coin you mentioned is the "flat relief" type 2 1907 Saint and not the "Wire Rim" in discussion

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said: "Next, let's debate meaning of the term, "net grade", since not everyone thinks it means what MOST of us know it means, in the appropriate and relevant context ;) "

    Hopefully, this suggestion is not a hollow one. There is a lot of "fluff" posted on CU that goes nowhere. I for one appreciate a good disagreement and respect posters like BryceM who take the time to express their views.

    At the moment I'm studying a grading guide for copper coins. Therefore, I should be very interested to learn what MOST folks (?)* who know the appropriate and relevant context believe is the correct definition of net grading. After all, most of us here were alive when the term was "cooked-up" a short time ago (in numismatic time).

    *A small and dedicated minority of the total collector population. :)

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