The Official PCGS White Label Rattler Census --- 71 listed as of 11/22/19
illini420
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The PCGS "White Label Rattler"
Information posted by Michael Sherman, PCGS Director of Education, on 8/5/16:
White label holders were used less than a month. It was actually unplanned, as the vendor shipped the wrong color and type of labels. They were supposed to be ribbed, light green paper, but we got white, unribbed paper, so we used those till the correct labels arrived. This was in early February, 1986.
There are two varieties of white labels. Gen 1.0 used a crude, dot matrix printer. Note the shape of the "5". That was used only a few days, and I doubt more than a handful exist today. It appears the first 900 or 1000 coins used this style. Cert numbers are roughly 1080000 through 1081000.
Gen 1.1 used the newer, improved printer. Possibly around 1400 or so of these were issued. I would imagine there may be a few hundred of those around still, but that may be a high estimate. Cert numbers of these should be in the 1081000 to 1082380 range. (These are simply estimates from those I have seen.)
Note that the light green label (Gen 1.2) used from March 1986 through Sept 1989 tends to fade with time, so the real test for a true white label is the insert stock. It should be unribbed. If you see horizontal ribbing, it's a generation 1.2 even if it has faded to white.
Shortly, we will be announcing a website that will detail all of the PCGS holder generations.
Since that post, PCGS has added a Museum of Coin Holders to their website. The Museum includes the White Label Rattlers as Generations 1.0 and 1.1
Here is a photo taken by the Penny Lady at the February 2011 Long Beach show of a couple of white label rattlers being displayed by PCGS as part of their 25th anniversary celebration:
The White Label vs. The Green Label
The PCGS "White Label Rattler" Census:
Gen 1.0 (29 Listed)
1080129 - 1851 Three Cent Silver MS63 CAC Gold - cert no. invalid
1080131 - 1878 Shield Nickel PR63 - cert no. invalid
1080145 - 1909 $5 Indian Gold MS63 - cert no. invalid
1080197 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64 - cert no. invalid
1080198 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC - cert no. invalid
1080214*** - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC - cert no. invalid
1080221 - 1943-S Walking Liberty Half MS65 - cert no. invalid
1080313 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS65
1080330 - 1962 Franklin Half PR67
1080336 - 1961 Franklin Half PR65
1080337 - 1961 Franklin Half PR67 CAC
1080339*** - 1963 Franklin Half PR65
1080340 - 1963 Franklin Half PR67
1080410 - 1837 Seated Dime No Stars MS64 CAC Gold
1080411 - 1838 Seated Dime Large Stars MS65 CAC
1080412 - 1859 Seated Dime MS65 CAC
1080508 - 1944-D Walking Liberty Half MS65
1080532 - 1945-D Walking Liberty Half MS65 CAC
1080540 - 1945-D Walking Liberty Half MS66
1080560 - 1938 Walking Liberty Half PR65 CAC Gold
1080596 - 1900 $2.5 Liberty Gold MS64 CAC
1080628 - 1867 Seated Quarter MS64
1080685 - 1892 Columbian Half MS65 CAC
1080710 - 1941 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold
1080720 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS66 CAC
1080729 - 1942 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold
1080805 - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS64 CAC
1080845 - 1878 Shield Nickel PR67 CAC
1080883 - 1937 Buffalo Nickel PR65 CAC Gold
Gen 1.1 (42 Listed)
1081041 - 1926 $2.5 Sesquicentennial Gold MS63 CAC
1081045 - 1917 $1 McKinley Gold MS63 CAC Gold
1081059 - 1964 Kennedy Half PR69
1081109 - 1936-S Oregon Trail Half MS63
1081209 - 1903 $20 Liberty Gold MS63
1081235 - 1946 Walking Liberty Half MS64
1081268 - 1946 Iowa Half MS65 CAC Gold
1081301 - 1935 Spanish Trail Half MS65
1081304 - 1935 Texas Half MS65 CAC
1081346*** - 1941-D Walking Liberty Half MS65 - cert no. invalid
1081359 - 1939 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold
1081362 - 1940 Mercury Dime PR65 CAC Gold
1081398 - 1899-O Morgan Dollar MS63
1081408 - 1900 Morgan Dollar MS62
1081426 - 1903 Morgan Dollar MS63
1081443 - 1922-D Peace Dollar MS62
1081544 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS63
1081572 - 1913 Lincoln Cent MS65RD CAC
1081670 - 1862 Seated Half Dime MS65 CAC
1081686 - 1963 Franklin Half PR65
1081722 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS64
1081750 - 1946 Iowa Half MS65
1081791 - 1937 Buffalo Nickel MS65
1081817 - 1881-S Morgan Dollar MS65PL
1081819 - 1882-S Morgan Dollar MS65
1081878 - 1892 Morgan Dollar MS62 CAC
1081932 - 1902-O Morgan Dollar MS63
1081939 - 1903-O Morgan Dollar MS63
1081943 - 1904-O Morgan Dollar MS64
1081948 - 1936 Albany Half MS65
1081957 - 1936-S Oregon Trail Half MS65 CAC
1081958 - 1938-D Oregon Trail Half MS66
1081973 - 1899 $5 Liberty Gold MS63
1081982 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS64
1081984 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS64
1081992 - 1898-O Morgan Dollar MS63 CAC
1082007 - 1882-CC Morgan Dollar MS64PL
1082010 - 1882-CC Morgan Dollar MS63 CAC
1082088 - 1924 $20 St. Gaudens Double Eagle MS64
1082350 - 1943-D Walking Liberty Half MS63
1082370 - 1935 Connecticut Half MS65
1082378 - 1964 Kennedy Half PR67
Remember that not all PCGS Rattlers starting with cert no. 108XXXX are white label rattlers. The majority of 108XXXX rattlers are the regular green label rattlers that are listed as the Generation 1.2 PCGS holder.
In an effort to help find the cut-off point between the Generation 1.1 and 1.2 holders, here are a couple of the lowest 108XXXX certification numbers found on Generation 1.2 green label rattlers:
1082093 - 1924 $20 St. Gaudens Double Eagle MS63 - Possible regrade/reholder?
1082388 - 1922 Grant Gold Dollar PCGS MS65 - and you can see an image of the coin here on Great Collections
1082428 - 1891-CC Morgan Dollar PCGS MS64 - and you can see an image of the coin here on Great Collections
As of 8/15/2019, we note that some white label rattlers have been "found" online only by searching old auction archives and not seen by a fourm member in person. When that is the case, we can no longer be certain the coin is still in that old white label holder. Accordingly, effective as of 8/15/2019, those coins "discovered" by our members only through old auction records or online listings have been marked with "***" following the certification number.
If you have found another PCGS "White Label Rattler" please post the information below and it will be added to the list. Thanks!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Comments
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
This pair was listed in an eBay listing awhile back with no slab premium... I missed it though... bummer!! Anyone here get it?
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
.
Sold on CRO recently.
Thanks for doing this census Mike.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
Had missed that Proof Walker the first time around... added to the list now, thanks
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I did not buy off eBay but have it now. If the forum wants to take credit for his great purchase he can, but I wont name him.
Added some more info to the OP as well as a few more coins... also can verify CAC status of these at some point if you all think that is important to track.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
There was a proof Shield nickel that sold on GC at the same time as the 1851 3cs. I don't recall the cert number or date though.
Haven't had too many cherry picks - these are getting better known!
Interesting story - One day a few years ago I got an email.
Someone recognized the rattler they had was different looking.
They had Googled "white rattler" out of the blue (not knowing that's what we call it) and my PCGS BST offer was one of the hits.
I filled him in on what it was, made an offer and bought his P67 Franky OWR.
Just received an email w/ a new addition to the list:
1080720 - 1938-D Buffalo Nickel MS66 CAC
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I finally got a picture of my PCGA Gen 1.1 --1081408
Ok I did the digging.
Shield Nickel: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/281348/1878-Shield-Nickel-PCGS-Proof-63-OGH-1st-Gen
Peace $: http://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/301583/1922-D-Peace-Silver-Dollar-PCGS-MS-62-OGH-1st-Gen
Added several more to the list... up to 39 confirmed now!
Also added a couple of low number 108XXXX Generation 1.2 green label rattlers to the list in an effort to find the cut-off point between Generation 1.1 and 1.2
Please let me know if you have any others or have any other suggestions for the census.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Correction to your list of Gen 1.1 coins - cert num 1081304 is a 1935 Texas Commem 50C in MS65 CAC
Thanks, got it fixed now
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Thanks. And btw, great work on this post. I really appreciate the research you put into this topic.
Here is my one and only ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Thanks for the kind words
Updated the OP and we're now up to 40 listings!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Two more.
I attended the Springfield, Illinois Coin Show today.
One of the dealers had a display in his case and two of the coins were white rattlers -- a Gen 1.0 and a Gen 1.1.
They are 45-D Walker, MS-65; 1080532 and an Albany, MS-65, 1081948. No pictures; I should have taken a picture with my iPhone but didn't think about it until on my way home. The dealers son, I think, knows about the generation 1 holders. He said the Albany was one of a bunch that were submitted back then. I pulled up this discussion thread and he said he know some of you that have posted.
Great, thanks for the report and I've updated the census above!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Anyone have any new white label rattlers pop up lately?
I bought and sold one of them at the recent Long Beach show a couple weeks ago, but it was one already in the census.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
That's the only rattlers I have
I have no idea if I have one... I have a lot of older slabs I picked up over the years. I suppose I should take a look. I will post the number here if I find one... Cheers, RickO
why are so many pictures missing?
BHNC #203
@ttown... sorry neither of those Franklins are in the old white label holders. Serial number should start with 108. Nice ones though.
Was at the Denver ANA World's Fair of Money this last week and saw only one PCGS White Label Rattler on the bourse. The coin was pointed out to me by another forum member and it is not a cheap one!!
1080628 - 1867 Seated Quarter PCGS MS64
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
How about this one?
Realgator - Nope - green with ribs in the paper.
Looks like we have a mystery on our hands.
2093 < 2350
A gen. 1.2 with an earlier sequence than a 1.1?
Well it is a bit of a mystery. A couple possibilities:
They must have found more white labels after the green labels arrived from their supplier and used them up.
Possibly using another printer with different labels in loaded in it.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
Could have also been a reholder of a white label rattler at the time green label rattlers were still in use... keeping the same cert number.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Mike . .
1080330 -- 1962 PF67 Franklin
Drunner
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-D-PCGS-MS66-Walking-Liberty-Half-Dollar-A8683/192275391619?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Interesting that every coin on the OWR list happen to be MS and PR.
newcollect - that's a green label with ribbing in the paper.
Thanks for the addition to the list
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I've always dreamed of coming across one of these on ebay. Have never found one..... yet! The hunt continues..
I would be interested in seeing a thread on the valuation of the Rattler gen. 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 .
Likewise, I would like to see serial numbers developed identifying the end of one series and the beginning of the next. What number ends the white labels??)
I have spoken to Mike Kittle indirectly on the subject of valuation. He was not interested in addressing the matter head on, however, I suspect he has much that could be useful. This subject may well fall into the 'Proprietary Business Information' arena. Not faulting Mike. If I were in his position, I would surely be thinking along the same lines.
Mike, if you are reading this; perhaps you might share your sell prices.
From what little I have seen, it appears that the white labels have a premiums that are multiples of the Gray Sheet for the coin. If the coin is worth less than $100 up to $200, the multiple could be 4 to 8 times of the Gray Sheet listed value.
As the Gray Sheet values increase, the multiple drops. Mike sold the 1909 MS63 $5 gold (#1080145) for about 3+ times the G.S. bid price at that time.
The connection appears to be: as the G.S. bid increases, the multiple commanded decreases.
As the PCGS Generation pushes thru the 108xxxx series and the white labels yield to blue labels and the numbered series move beyond 108xxxx to 109xxxxx and beyond, the premium/multliple evaporates.
Is there an intrepid maven out there capable of assigning more than a cursory guess as to what these multiples are?
MagicSteve
I don't think coming up with a pre-set formula will work as there are too many variables.
If another Morgan came available, I'd be yawning. If the right type coin was offered, I'd be all over it aggressively.
There was a OWR at the ANA with a nice type coin in it but the coin was very unattractive and priced at 5 figures.
At a minimum, the holder is worth a $300-$400 premium.
Sold on ebay today
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
Man, as much time as I spend on eBay, how do I miss these! :
Updated the list with two more coins today... getting close to 50 of these white label rattlers listed in the census!!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Here's the lowest 1.2 I've seen - appeared today on ebay.
@REALGATOR posted that one back in August. Nobody knows how it's green!
But as Kermit the frog has said...It's not easy being green.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
I have been on the hunt! but nothing yet!
What if this was the very first green rattler? I mean it does not seem like a stretch that it would have been part of the same submission as the 1924 $20 with cert number 1082088 above, considering it's a 1926 $20 with cert number 1082093. Only 5 certificates difference between the white and that green.
As far as cert the cert #s go, it IS the 1st green rattler. Only one white label with a cert # higher has been found. Maybe this Saint is the beginning of gen 1.2 and my white label walker cert # 1082350 is the anomaly. There is a large gap between 1082093 and 1082350. Maybe some time will give us more clues on what happened here.
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone