UPDATED IN OP-----------Should BU ASE's have scratches and dings ?

1630Boston

**Received a replacement today, 20 beautiful 2012 ASE's
**

.Just received from a big seller, most have a defect of some magnitude.
First time this has happened.
Is this acceptable, I wouldn't think so myself.

Downtown1974

I have had some come with hairline scratches....possibly from falling onto each other when placed back in tubes? I'm not sure the reason. A ding seems unreasonable if advertised as BU. Have you reached out to the seller yet?

1630Boston

Yes, they just sent me a return label and will exchange them.
Half of these had much more than hairlines or 'bag marks', some of these were abused.

derryb

Seller?

BAJJERFAN

Some places sell stuff like that as "scrapers" for a reduced price. Seems like those might be even worse than grading rejects. I've rarely gotten such poor coins direct from new tubes. Sounds like someone messed with them somewhere along the line.

Coulport

Picked out the ones to submit & sent you the dregs.

1630Boston

It was JMB

OPA

Bullion or mint marked ones? Bullion is bullion and that includes the no mint marked ASE's.

hchcoin

I would send them back. The only rough ASE's I get are when I get them at a show from smaller dealers. Normally, the newer stuff looks pretty good from the big bullion dealers.

ricko

Depends on the price over melt.... culls should be pretty close... .otherwise, send them back. Cheers, RickO

OPA

@ricko said:
Depends on the price over melt.... culls should be pretty close... .otherwise, send them back. Cheers, RickO

I don't believe that a few scratches on bullion ASE's are considered culls.

1630Boston

These were not culls, they were random year BU ASE's.
They were abused.
Sent back today, will update with the replacement.
Thanks for all of the advice here.

OPA

@1630Boston said:
These were not culls, they were random year BU ASE's.
They were abused.
Sent back today, will update with the replacement.
Thanks for all of the advice here.

You are fortunate, that JMB allows returns on their common bullion coins (rounds), and bullion ASE's fall in to that category. Most bullion dealers do not & that includes eBay, allow returns for their bullion products. FYI on eBay, bullion coins, rounds or bars, are not subject to the regular "return rules."

BAJJERFAN

@OPA said:

@1630Boston said:
These were not culls, they were random year BU ASE's.
They were abused.
Sent back today, will update with the replacement.
Thanks for all of the advice here.

You are fortunate, that JMB allows returns on their common bullion coins (rounds), and bullion ASE's fall in to that category. Most bullion dealers do not & that includes eBay, allow returns for their bullion products. FYI on eBay, bullion coins, rounds or bars, are not subject to the regular "return rules."

When they sell junk that isn't labeled as such, then they should accept returns. An ounce of silver is an ounce of silver until it's scratched, dinged or whatever, then it's damaged. To most people it shouldn't matter, but it does.
Thing is that JMB doesn't buy from the public [unless they changed that or it's a mint-sealed MB] so I wonder who they got that stuff from.

1630Boston

@BAJJERFAN
My thoughts exactly, I have never bought a roll of ASE's in such poor shape.
These were not 'bag marks'...these ranged from scrapes and gouges to some type of wear.
The fact that they offered to exchange them and pay return postage within 5 minutes of receipt makes me wonder.
I will let you all know what I receive in return.

BAJJERFAN

A problem sometimes arises if/when you go to sell/resell them. When I buy BU coins or from a new unopened MB, I assume that's what they are. I rarely open the tubes and if I do it's to verify that earlier years are indeed the years that they're supposed to be. I don't dump the tube and PM test each coin. I may add a bit of padding to keep the coins from rattling during future transit. When I go to sell the rolls, I sell them on the same basis as when I bought them. So far, knock on wood, I haven't had any issues. The can have them, but they really shouldn't. A lot of that is PMD or post mint damage.

bronco2078

They should all be scratched deliberately before they leave the mint to prevent people from pissing good money away getting them slabbed.

1630Boston

I would like to press 'disagree, but I won't.

jmski52

lol, bronco

bronco2078

@1630Boston said:
I would like to press 'disagree, but I won't.

Disagree if you like I won't start a thread about it I promise

TwoSides2aCoin

Silver per ounce is just silver. Guess the grade.

OPA

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Silver per ounce is just silver. Guess the grade.

Bullion silver per ounce is just silver

Baley

Part (maybe most) of the couple buck "premium" each for ASEs over melt is assumed for them to be nice, say MS68 or better, and "fresh" and "matched" looking if bought in roll quantity.

Any significant blemishes or appearance of them being (relative) cull ASEs would logically reduce this premium both buying and selling, and if the coins are ugly enough, maybe even to slightly below melt (I personally wouldn't pay as much as melt for ugly coins; who's going to buy them from me?)

OPA

@Baley said:
Part (maybe most) of the couple buck "premium" each for ASEs over melt is assumed for them to be nice, say MS68 or better, and "fresh" and "matched" looking if bought in roll quantity.

Any significant blemishes or appearance of them being (relative) cull ASEs would logically reduce this premium both buying and selling, and if the coins are ugly enough, maybe even to slightly below melt (I personally wouldn't pay as much as melt for ugly coins; who's going to buy them from me?)

Agree on your presumption, that if the ASE's are purchased solely for the intent to resell, they should be in decent shape. However, the OP never indicated the reason for purchasing them. In addition. it also depends on the spread above melt paid for. Again, I'm referring to ASE's & not damaged rounds or culled silver coins. Even so called junk ASE's, most likely would not sell below spot.

asheland

I agree with Baley, with any significant scratches and problems they usually are discounted (from the high premium)
For the premiums they carry, they indeed should be MS67 and up.

OPA

@asheland said:
I agree with Baley, with any significant scratches and problems they usually are discounted (from the high premium)
For the premiums they carry, they indeed should be MS67 and up.

The OP never indicated how much he paid above melt. If he paid the going premium above melt, I would agree that he is entitled to clean coins. If however, he paid the discounted price for: Cull, Damaged, etc. ASE's .. well, that's another story.

Baley

Sounds like we're in vigorous agreement again, OPA!

1630Boston

FTR, I paid the going premium above melt for these ASE's.
They were terrible, I will update when the replacement arrives.
Thanks for all of the input.

OPA

(I personally wouldn't pay as much as melt for ugly coins; who's going to buy them from me?)
Baley....APMEX would be happy to purchase them from you at $1 - $1.50 above spot.

Baley

OPA, my time and energy is worth quite a bit more than that

OPA

@Baley said:
OPA, my time and energy is worth quite a bit more than that

If that is the case, I suspect you do not bother in bullion ASE's.

BAJJERFAN

@OPA said:
(I personally wouldn't pay as much as melt for ugly coins; who's going to buy them from me?)
Baley....APMEX would be happy to purchase them from you at $1 - $1.50 above spot.

apmex.com/product/6912/1-oz-silver-american-eagle-cull-damaged-etc

You can buy problem-free coins from other places cheaper than what they sell their culls for. Notice that they don't post a buy price. I bet you'd be lucky to get fitty cents over.

rawteam1

There goes the silver is money theory...

1630Boston

The item # at JMB was scasez01var and it is no longer available on the site ???

asheland

This is one of the things about junk silver that I like. It's pretty much immune to this issue.

BAJJERFAN

@OPA said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Silver per ounce is just silver. Guess the grade.

Bullion silver per ounce is just silver

True, but in the real world it's also true that many are persnickety about the quality of their bullion whether we think it's justified or not.

cohodk

@BAJJERFAN said:

@OPA said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Silver per ounce is just silver. Guess the grade.

Bullion silver per ounce is just silver

True, but in the real world it's also true that many are persnickety about the quality of their bullion whether we think it's justified or not.

Yup, if you're gonna have a pig, might as well make her pretty.

Eventually, as we get older, we realize there is much more beauty in blemish than polish.

derryb

If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

BAJJERFAN

@cohodk said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@OPA said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Silver per ounce is just silver. Guess the grade.

Bullion silver per ounce is just silver

True, but in the real world it's also true that many are persnickety about the quality of their bullion whether we think it's justified or not.

Yup, if you're gonna have a pig, might as well make her pretty.

Eventually, as we get older, we realize there is much more beauty in blemish than polish.

OINK!
I once had a dealer wanting to buy a roll of ASEs, but he wanted to cherry the roll and expected me to take back his rejects. SCREW THAT.

There's nothing wrong with stuff like that as long as the seller states what he's selling. As a buyer, one needs to ask too. I had an Illinois dealer here on the boards pull that on me. Sent a roll which was mostly junk. Only way I found out was because the roll broke open in shipping. Fortunately I was able to sell them [along with a bunch of others] to someone who wasn't as persnickety about the quality. I'd just as soon not deal with them.

BAJJERFAN

@derryb said:
If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

But probably not "from a new mint tube". Hard to believe that the mint would ever send out a full tube of dreck coins.

derryb

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

But probably not "from a new mint tube". Hard to believe that the mint would ever send out a full tube of dreck coins.

Probably culls from what the seller sent in for grading or reselling what they took in. Many of the big bullion dealers submit for grading and sell graded ASEs, don't expect them to sell you their 70s raw.

cohodk

I think all ASEs should be scuffed up and traded at spot. This would save stackers money and all them to accumulate a larger stack. The "grading" game is just another form of wealth distribution.

OPA

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

But probably not "from a new mint tube". Hard to believe that the mint would ever send out a full tube of dreck coins.

And why not? The bullion version of the ASE's were never intended for the coin collecting audience, and are priced accordingly. They produce the mint marked collectors version for that.

BAJJERFAN

@derryb said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

But probably not "from a new mint tube". Hard to believe that the mint would ever send out a full tube of dreck coins.

Probably culls from what the seller sent in for grading or reselling what they took in. Many of the big bullion dealers submit for grading and sell graded ASEs, don't expect them to sell you their 70s raw.

Even the culls from a freshly opened MB at PCGS shouldn't be THAT beaten up. I wonder if someone at PCGS would be willing to comment about that.

BAJJERFAN

@cohodk said:
I think all ASEs should be scuffed up and traded at spot. This would save stackers money and all them to accumulate a larger stack. The "grading" game is just another form of wealth distribution.

I don't care about the grading game. One can play it or not. A 69 is a 69 whether it's in a roll or slab. The point is is that the manufacturing process is adequate to where a 69 or 70 quality coin should be the rule and not the exception. The point is that most customers expect near perfect coins. Would you care if your new car had a crappy paint job even tho the mileage, comfort, reliability was the same as the one with the perfect paint job next to it on the same lot? Would you expect a discount for the crappy paint job? Frankly, I'd hate dealing with persnickety nitpickers.

BAJJERFAN

@OPA said:

@BAJJERFAN said:

@derryb said:
If it maintains luster, has not been circulated and grades 60 or above it fits the definition of brilliant uncirculated.

But probably not "from a new mint tube". Hard to believe that the mint would ever send out a full tube of dreck coins.

And why not? The bullion version of the ASE's were never intended for the coin collecting audience, and are priced accordingly. They produce the mint marked collectors version for that.

Ever watch a video of them being made? No reason why there should ever be more than an infrequent dinger/scraper. Frankly, it would be instructive if one could send a roll like the OP got back to the mint and see if they would honestly comment that they would never send out anything that looks like that.

Also, I'd like to see a roll of rejects that APMEX gets back from their YUGE PCGS submission. I bet they're nothing like what the OP says he got from JMBullion. If people don't care about what their stuff looks like that's their right, but to say that others should't care is just wrong.

i don't care one way or tuther, but there are those who do.

derryb

bottom line: did the coins meet the definition of BU or was the buyers expectation of BU too high?

BU includes MS60 or higher while GEM BU includes MS65 or higher.

Bochiman

@derryb said:
bottom line: did the coins meet the definition of BU or was the buyers expectation of BU too high?

BU includes MS60 or higher while GEM BU includes MS65 or higher.

Not to pick on Derryb, as it just happens that his post is the most recent...and others have asked the same thing........

but, are you guys NOT READING what the OP has stated in his posts? He said some of the coins (1/2) appeared to have been abused. Abused does NOT = "bu" to me. Congrats if it does to you.

He also said, in a post above from Jan 22 (2 days ago) that some of them appeared to have WEAR (wear does NOT = bu).

"These were not 'bag marks'...these ranged from scrapes and gouges to some type of wear."

So, guys, just reading what was previously written, they were NOT ALL BU

derryb

pics would solve the mystery. My assumption is that OP may have been expecting high end BU but received low end BU. BU ranges much lower than many realize.Big name sellers of ASEs described by the OP usually make it clear that they are "damaged."

Were they advertised as BU?

Post a few clear pics of them.

BAJJERFAN

@1630Boston said:
The item # at JMB was scasez01var and it is no longer available on the site ???

Well they still have them. Looks like $2.69 over for less than 5 rolls. That's a hefty price for culls since you can often find deals for new unopened rolls for less than that. I suppose it's also possible that whoever picked your order pulled stock from the wrong bin if you didn't specifically order the cull stuff.

jmbullion.com/american-silver-eagle-cull/

derryb

Now that we know they sell culls, sounds like they mixed up the OP's order for BU coins. Also sounds like they are making good with him.