SCD: 1885 Dauphin County Centennial Medal by Barber and Philadelphia Mint?

ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 12, 2017 12:30AM in U.S. Coin Forum
The following HK-Unlisted SCD immediately jumped out at me as I was reviewing HA. It recently sold for $3,760 with the description that it may have been struck by the Philadelphia Mint using dies by William Barber. Any thoughts on how likely this is the case?

Are there any known silver specimens in finer condition than this one?

1885 Dauphin County Centennial Medal in Silver NGC MS63PL

Comments

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,470 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I bid on the medal and was surprised at the selling price. the Bronze is much more appealing and will sell for less later today. I have no way of knowing whether any of the "Hype" in the auction description is based in anything other than pure speculation since the cataloguer gives no reference. my feeling is that the issuer struck the Silver pcs. and then added the initials/name as an afterthought.

    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • rickoricko Posts: 67,868 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry, I cannot help you... however, that certainly is an interesting medal...lots of detail...Cheers, RickO
  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: keets
    I bid on the medal and was surprised at the selling price. the Bronze is much more appealing and will sell for less later today. I have no way of knowing whether any of the "Hype" in the auction description is based in anything other than pure speculation since the cataloguer gives no reference. my feeling is that the issuer struck the Silver pcs. and then added the initials/name as an afterthought.


    Looking at the Heritage images of the silver and bronze examples, I suspect it's the other way around the Bz were struck first, then Ag. Looks like it is the same die, some polish matches up. Die cracks are more developed on the silver example. Plus, while I'm not gonna do an overlook now, I think you can see where the engraver's signature was effaced from the die on the silver example.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • jonathanbjonathanb Posts: 2,805 ✭✭✭
    Stack's sold a couple of other silver examples in the last few years, for $1,500 and $2,500, both AU. So on the one hand there is a precedent for high prices. On the other hand, there are at least two others out there...
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,249 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not a fan of catalog remarks such as the following:

    "The silver pieces do not show the Krider imprint, since they were likely struck at the Philadelphia Mint."

    Without some basis in documentation to back up such a statement, the writer is placing their reputation at stake, and potentially rewriting history.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,470 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you can see where the engraver's signature was effaced from the die on the silver example.



    looking at it closer as you suggested it appears that the name P.L. KRIDER PHILA. may have worn/filled on the die(s) to the point where a weaker strike wouldn't fill the die in those places.

    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • illini420illini420 Posts: 11,292 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep, I agree with Aegis & keets on this one.

    Saw that one in the auction, but didn't really look at it closely at the time. Didn't take the catalog description of it being made by Barber and the US Mint too seriously at the time either as no other compelling supporting information was provided. But I imagine others may have relied on that write up in setting their bids.

    One of those times the cataloger shouldn't just be repeating information written in older catalogs unless they know for certain.
  • dengadenga Posts: 882 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Zoins
    The following HK-Unlisted SCD immediately jumped out at me as I was reviewing HA. It recently sold for $3,760 with the description that it may have been struck by the Philadelphia Mint using dies by William Barber. Any thoughts on how likely this is the case?

    Are there any known silver specimens in finer condition than this one?

    1885 Dauphin County Centennial Medal in Silver NGC MS63PL


    The cataloger is guessing. Barber did do private medals
    but normally signed one or both dies. It is unlikely that any
    of these were struck at the Philadelphia Mint and were
    more likely done by Peter Krider.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 15,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did Walter Breen write the description? image
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2016 3:47PM

    Very interesting and good catch everyone!

    Doing some searching, it seems Peter Krider was quite the silversmith.

    Of interest, it's believed that Barber's Lafayette Dollar obverse was copied from Peter Krider's 1881 Yorktown Surrender Centennial Medal. This is discussed in this thread.

    The bronze ATS MS66BN went for $705.00.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 12, 2017 12:30AM

    HA just sold a silver NGC MS65 PL for $3,120.00 at LB with a description saying it was designed by William Barber with what appears to be dies by Charles Barber.

    1885 Dauphin County Centennial Medal in Silver
    Designed by William Barber
    Struck in the Medal Department

    1885 MS Dauphin County Pennsylvania Centennial Medal in Silver MS65 Prooflike NGC. Raymond-154. 38 mm. Unlisted in the HK reference on So-Called Dollars. Raymond's unlisted SCDs mentions it and says it is rare in white metal and extremely rare in bronze. The silver version is not listed, and the assumption is it is even rarer in this precious metal. The design is remarkably similar to William Barber's Nevada dollar and Centennial Exposition pieces (HK-19 and 20). William Barber did the models and George Soley made the steel reductions on a reducing lathe. William Barber died in 1879 and Soley died sometime in the 1870s. From the date, this appears to have been the product of Charles Barber's reworking of his father's dies. The Philadelphia Mint commonly struck medals from dies provided by outside sources. The Medal Department charged a per-piece fee in addition to the metal and overhead expenses, and delivered the medals to the organization that placed the order. The fields are brightly reflective and the devices are intricately detailed. Pale rose toning is seen over each side. A Choice AU silver piece sold in a Stack's Bowers auction in March 2016 for $2,585. (NGC ID# 2TGG, PCGS# 661340)

  • THOMAS655THOMAS655 Posts: 60 ✭✭✭


    Attached are pictures of my Dauphin county, PA white metal version of this medal, graded MS 65 PL by NGC. When I submitted this medal to NGC for grading, I tried to get them to attribute it with the Raymond #159, but they did not do so. There is no census kept of this medal type by NGC, but this one would be hard to beat at Gem MS 65 PL!!!

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