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Gorny & Mosch - Shipping and other charges

I won a single coin on their recent auction. I was unpleasantly surprised by the fact that I had received an invoice with the following:

Subtotal 1.200,00
+ Buyer's Charge 17,50% 210,00
+ bank charges 15,00
+ postage 36,00
+ insurance 14,61


So basically, 65.6 Euro on top of the 17.5% buyer's fee. Effectively another 5.5% in fees bringing total to 23% of purchase price. I generally pay no bank fees and 7-15 Euro for shipping with any other European auction house. To me this implies that they are gearing their business for wholesale buyers who may buy many coins spreading the cost, and not individual collectors who buy fewer. I find these fees egregious and personally will not buy from them again. For some, such costs may not matter for the right coins.

I voiced my frustration with them and they didn't really seem to care. I guess that validates the focus on wholesale. Thought I would share. This extra cost feeds into my "tuition" fund which includes many mistakes made over time while engaged in the hobby image

Comments

  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't even deal with them; quite a few others with similar attitudes. I look at what they have on sale and then with all due respect leave them the H--- alone.
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry Zohar, you only found out when it was to late. I have stopped buying from them some time ago after I had requested a better image of a coin. their reply was to send the same image as they had posted, except a bit more cropped.
    The reply suggested that this is the best they can do without having to get a photographer.
    Juice: 17,5 % is actually on the low side. others have up to 28 % (some in Britain and France).
    Bank charges: if you send them Euros, there should NOT be any BC, neither if you send a bank draft in euros.
    Postage: is a common rip off by European shippers. ( but to be fair, also by a lot of US sh ippers) it seems to be another source if easy Income. They are forgetting that once an item is paid for, they no longer own it, but are only the custodians until delivered to the actual shipping co.
    It should actually be the buyers desicion on how the item is being shipped.BTW, from Germany, a registered letter can be shipped for as low as about $ 5.
    they claim that packaging and a trip to the postoffce etc, is included in the shipping cost.
    there are other auctioneers who willingly ship for a flat fee usually from Euro 10-15, regardless of the amount.

    If you question the shipping cost, which I have done numerous times, the answer will be one of "responsibility" and a hint to read their conditions of sale.
    Usually they carry private insurance called Varlor-Insurance ( valuable insurance coverage offered usually by their business insurance underwriters) as long a they can proof shipping and receipt, and meet the insurers shipping conditions, like shipping only from Monday to wednesdat etc in unmarked containers etc, if something goes astray, it is covered.
    they use a % of the annual premium , in relation to your order, ( multiplied by many % of profit) and apply it to each shipment. Technically seen, they would have to give you a copy of their insurance policy they took out for your shipment, so you are aware of its conditions.
    Sorry Zohar for your negative experience.

    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    YQQ - thanks for taking the time in your write up. I probably should have enquired prior but as I said, it's part of the learning.

    I do wish to highlight Rauch, Kunker, WAG, Pater, Kapaan who charge the nominal fee and provide very good service. There are some good ones in Europe, yet this one stood out as excessive by any measure.
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not really understanding how this is much different than buying from Heritage or any of the other USA dealers. I think you're being unfair / misleading in your summary calculations.

    Firstly, the price of the coin already includes the 17.5% BP and you should already be taking that into account with your bidding (you knew about the BP -- wasn't tacked on post hoc).

    So, the real story is that the cost of the coin was 1,410 EU, onto which you had postage and insurance of 50 EU (3.5%), and a 15 EU bank fee (<1%).

    Just to equate to $USD for analogy, a purchase of $1400 from Heritage would cost you $24.90 + $1.25 to ship (1.9%). Given that the package is being shipped from abroad, one would expect the fees and insurance to be a bit more, and 2x more isn't outrageous by any stretch of the imagination. With regard to the < 1% EU bank fee, that's also understandable as a convenience fee, and is charged by a great many of the European auction houses (often in excess of 1%).

    I'm confused why this is considered "egregious". Have you tried to ship a registered/insured item to Europe with value 1400 EU recently? I think an expectation of shipping of 7-15 EU is exceeding unrealistic considering you pay far more than that to even ship something from Dallas to NYC. I wouldn't be surprised if what they are charging you (50 EU) is actually reasonably close to their actual cost.

    You're buying a 1410 EU coin, and the 65 EU extra will stop you from buying from them again? If you truly wanted the coin, then that's a pretty small "fee" to pay for getting it safely to the USA insured.

    Would you have bid one more increment over your winning bid? If so, then what's the complaint with 65EU in post-auction "fees"?

    Just my 2 cents...
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brandon - read my post.

    I pay 7-15 Euro to all other auction houses. None charge bank fees and as YQQ suggested, they have none if wired in Euro which I did.

    Your argument about an increment is not relevant as that is purchase price which is at my discretion, not ancillary fees, which are not.

    I am sure that when you buy a home you look at the various ancillary costs regardless of home value (title insurance, escrow, bank fees) so 1410 Euro doesn't matter here. I have paid less in ancillary charges for more expensive purchases. I am also certain that when you buy from a European source on Ebay you do not see a 65 Euro charge to get it over here. There is some padding here.

    Benchmarking to other European houses cost structure is why I find the fee structure egregious in my opinion.

  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also just found out that they charge 4% for using Paypal. Normally I pay via wire transfer but my invoice is low enough that I assumed it would be more convenient to pay via Paypal. I'd be perfectly happy covering credit card/PP fees, but I've never heard of them being as high as 4%.
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Brandon - read my post.

    I pay 7-15 Euro to all other auction houses. None charge bank fees and as YQQ suggested, they have none if wired in Euro which I did.

    Your argument about an increment is not relevant as that is purchase price which is at my discretion, not ancillary fees, which are not.

    I am sure that when you buy a home you look at the various ancillary costs regardless of home value (title insurance, escrow, bank fees) so 1410 Euro doesn't matter here. I have paid less in ancillary charges for more expensive purchases. I am also certain that when you buy from a European source on Ebay you do not see a 65 Euro charge to get it over here. There is some padding here.

    Benchmarking to other European houses cost structure is why I find the fee structure egregious in my opinion. >>



    You must be buying from the exceptionally low cost houses then, because this doesn't seem egregious in the least bit to me. Many UK firms charge 20% BP, and shipping, and a fee to pay with a credit card or a bank wire transfer from abroad. Do you also stop buying from Heritage because they charge $25+ to ship to NYC, but don't even actually insure with the USPS and don't require signature for most shipments -- so their actual USPS cost is < $6.

    And, I have no clue what you mean by "1410 EU doesn't matter" -- it's exactly what matters. To insure more expensive items costs more. I feel like you're almost suggesting the auction house should take a loss on their actual shipping and insuring costs just so they can charge 7-15 EU?

    My point still stands -- you have no problem spending 1410 EU on the coin, but you don't want to apparently pay the actual costs for its safe passage to the USA or for the costs that the auction house may be incurring to convert between currencies.

    Ignoring an auction house completely from potential unique future purchases seems an extreme solution to this. EVERY purchase has opportunity costs. What you're paying on eBay with "free shipping" is almost always marked-up accordingly already for the eBay fees, PayPal fees, the actual shipping cost, and still allows the seller some profit. Just because eBay sellers roll those all into one bucket and just call it the "sell price" is sort of irrelevant.

    There was a thread on the USA coin boards recently in the same vein as this one. Opinions are varied, but in the end -- if you want to do business with a company like this, you have to play by their rules. By bidding you agreed to that. Complaining after the fact isn't really their fault. If you didn't want to pay those fees, then you should have looked into what they were going to be in more detail to begin with.

    I'm not being combative here, just being honest.
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I also just found out that they charge 4% for using Paypal. Normally I pay via wire transfer but my invoice is low enough that I assumed it would be more convenient to pay via Paypal. I'd be perfectly happy covering credit card/PP fees, but I've never heard of them being as high as 4%. >>



    PayPal fees are $0.30 + 2.9% for domestic purchases, and $0.30 + 3.9% for "cross-border" payments.

    They have been that way for quite some time.
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • SmEagle1795SmEagle1795 Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I also just found out that they charge 4% for using Paypal. Normally I pay via wire transfer but my invoice is low enough that I assumed it would be more convenient to pay via Paypal. I'd be perfectly happy covering credit card/PP fees, but I've never heard of them being as high as 4%. >>



    PayPal fees are $0.30 + 2.9% for domestic purchases, and $0.30 + 3.9% for "cross-border" payments.

    They have been that way for quite some time. >>



    Ah, thanks! I (incorrectly) assumed the 2.9% was worldwide.
    Learn about our world's shared history told through the first millennium of coinage: Colosseo Collection
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brandon - your views are always welcome, even if they don't match mine image

    You must be buying from the exceptionally low cost houses then, because this doesn't seem egregious in the least bit to me. Many UK firms charge 20% BP, and shipping, and a fee to pay with a credit card or a bank wire transfer from abroad. Do you also stop buying from Heritage because they charge $25+ to ship to NYC, but don't even actually insure with the USPS and don't require signature for most shipments -- so their actual USPS cost is < $6.

    See above - Kunker, Rauch, WAG are very much mainstream. Regarding Heritage - Of course there is a markup, yet there is more volume for me along with ease of purchase/delivery/service and in absolute dollars, its lower compared to 65 Euro.

    And, I have no clue what you mean by "1410 EU doesn't matter" -- it's exactly what matters. To insure more expensive items costs more. I feel like you're almost suggesting the auction house should take a loss on their actual shipping and insuring costs just so they can charge 7-15 EU?

    The actual cost is not 50 Euro to ship a coin to the US. Check the price points, its around 10-12.

    My point still stands -- you have no problem spending 1410 EU on the coin, but you don't want to apparently pay the actual costs for its safe passage to the USA or for the costs that the auction house may be incurring to convert between currencies.

    Read YQQ's comment - I transfer Euros and there are no conversion costs to them. The 1410 Euro argument is better kept in politics with the 1%/Occupy Wall Street crowd but as a reality we all look at administrative costs vs. purchase price. Note my mortgage argument. The administrative costs should not be a profit center, but rather a pass-through, the BP is where they should make their money.

    Ignoring an auction house completely from potential unique future purchases seems an extreme solution to this. EVERY purchase has opportunity costs. What you're paying on eBay with "free shipping" is almost always marked-up accordingly already for the eBay fees, PayPal fees, the actual shipping cost, and still allows the seller some profit. Just because eBay sellers roll those all into one bucket and just call it the "sell price" is sort of irrelevant.

    Greg Margulies charges $4.95 for any purchase and runs an auction format, not embedded in a buy it now price. Some may.

    There was a thread on the USA coin boards recently in the same vein as this one. Opinions are varied, but in the end -- if you want to do business with a company like this, you have to play by their rules. By bidding you agreed to that. Complaining after the fact isn't really their fault. If you didn't want to pay those fees, then you should have looked into what they were going to be in more detail to begin with.

    As indicated, I take the blame on me as part of tuition in not researching it prior, I do not blame them. I assumed it would be at par with the rest. Now that I know their terms, I will not buy from them as I don't roll it into the purchase price in my consideration. What I may do is go through a friend/dealer to bid and reduce cost through volume. That is my prerogative whether I buy a 1410 Euro coin or 400 Euro coin.

    I'm not being combative here, just being honest.

    I understand.
  • 7Jaguars7Jaguars Posts: 7,228 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't really mind the auction house charging whatever they will, and so will adjust my bids accordingly - although I confess I may pay more than I should if the auction "currency" is pounds and only get moved by all these charges when it comes time to pay the bill.

    What I do not care for is the cavalier and borderline rude behavior inflicted by some of the auction houses. How in the world do they not know I may or may not be test bidding with their firm and that I may not later on be looking at a larger purchase. Professionalism should be the order of the day; note the example of the well-known female US Dealer that is so often mentioned on the Light Side of these Boards that seems to present the American version of crass rudeness and attitude.
    Love that Milled British (1830-1960)
    Well, just Love coins, period.
  • marcmoishmarcmoish Posts: 6,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    well-known female US Dealer that is so often mentioned on the Light Side of these Boards that seems to present the American version of crass rudeness and attitude.

    I'm tellin Laura on you - and you can kiss your biz with her good bye imageimage

  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Brandon - your views are always welcome, even if they don't match mine image

    You must be buying from the exceptionally low cost houses then, because this doesn't seem egregious in the least bit to me. Many UK firms charge 20% BP, and shipping, and a fee to pay with a credit card or a bank wire transfer from abroad. Do you also stop buying from Heritage because they charge $25+ to ship to NYC, but don't even actually insure with the USPS and don't require signature for most shipments -- so their actual USPS cost is < $6.

    See above - Kunker, Rauch, WAG are very much mainstream. Regarding Heritage - Of course there is a markup, yet there is more volume for me along with ease of purchase/delivery/service and in absolute dollars, its lower compared to 65 Euro.

    And, I have no clue what you mean by "1410 EU doesn't matter" -- it's exactly what matters. To insure more expensive items costs more. I feel like you're almost suggesting the auction house should take a loss on their actual shipping and insuring costs just so they can charge 7-15 EU?

    The actual cost is not 50 Euro to ship a coin to the US. Check the price points, its around 10-12.

    My point still stands -- you have no problem spending 1410 EU on the coin, but you don't want to apparently pay the actual costs for its safe passage to the USA or for the costs that the auction house may be incurring to convert between currencies.

    Read YQQ's comment - I transfer Euros and there are no conversion costs to them. The 1410 Euro argument is better kept in politics with the 1%/Occupy Wall Street crowd but as a reality we all look at administrative costs vs. purchase price. Note my mortgage argument. The administrative costs should not be a profit center, but rather a pass-through, the BP is where they should make their money.

    Ignoring an auction house completely from potential unique future purchases seems an extreme solution to this. EVERY purchase has opportunity costs. What you're paying on eBay with "free shipping" is almost always marked-up accordingly already for the eBay fees, PayPal fees, the actual shipping cost, and still allows the seller some profit. Just because eBay sellers roll those all into one bucket and just call it the "sell price" is sort of irrelevant.

    Greg Margulies charges $4.95 for any purchase and runs an auction format, not embedded in a buy it now price. Some may.

    There was a thread on the USA coin boards recently in the same vein as this one. Opinions are varied, but in the end -- if you want to do business with a company like this, you have to play by their rules. By bidding you agreed to that. Complaining after the fact isn't really their fault. If you didn't want to pay those fees, then you should have looked into what they were going to be in more detail to begin with.

    As indicated, I take the blame on me as part of tuition in not researching it prior, I do not blame them. I assumed it would be at par with the rest. Now that I know their terms, I will not buy from them as I don't roll it into the purchase price in my consideration. What I may do is go through a friend/dealer to bid and reduce cost through volume. That is my prerogative whether I buy a 1410 Euro coin or 400 Euro coin.

    I'm not being combative here, just being honest.

    I understand. >>




    All fair observations and replies. IMO they are still reasonable costs, but maybe that's just because I have seen worse. I don't recommend you start bidding in any UK or Australian auctions if you think these are bad. image

    Now, the more important question -- where the heck are the pictures of this coin?!?! image
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Brandon - images are far below brg5658 standards but coin is a challenge to find nice for a short lived bishop. Hope its as nice in hand.

    Lot 4662 Andreas Jakob von Dietrichstein, 1747-1753. Taler 1748 FMK. 29.11 g. Pr. 2217. Dav. 1245. Selten in dieser Erhaltung! Attraktives Exemplar mit herrlicher Patina!

    image
  • marcmoishmarcmoish Posts: 6,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    that's a nice piece Z.

    all the yellin and screamin about it is moot point - its worth what you paid
    image

    Look how crisp all the rev is..shield is yumm...great tassels ...except the right side lowest quad set...hmmm..weak strike?
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is another from the same Bishopric era. As scarce (imaged by brg5658).

    image
  • harashaharasha Posts: 3,079 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Charges-wise, you did better than I with Baldwin's, except for the lower bank charge.
    Nevertheless, I knew I was going to get hit hard by all the fees, so I did not feel so bad, especially since my experiences with Baldwin's always have been positive.
    Honors flysis Income beezis Onches nobis Inob keesis

    DPOTD
  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Marc - note this same type listed on MA-Shops - similar weakness on lower reverse. Same worn die?

    LINK

    image
  • brg5658brg5658 Posts: 2,384 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Zohar, that's the exact same coin as you pictured that you said you won. Not just the same type, but the same coin! All of the markings match up...
    -Brandon
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
    My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
    -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree. Consignor has not removed it from MA-Shops yet his image is somewhat better.

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I believe you are right! Has not removed it from MA-Shops. Strange

  • ZoharZohar Posts: 6,629 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry for double post. Didn't see the reply post.
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