1817/3 CBH die state thread...should there be a "b" state? Bring your images!

jayPem

I am of the opinion that the already amazing 1817/3 bust half does in fact have three distinct die states, and since I now have three great images (Lance ) to illustrate my point,
I can go ahead and lay out my case for you....

Example #1....O-101
The early state, no major cracks or clashes yet, nice crisp overdate and eagle head....



Example #2....O-101a
Intermediate die state, many clash marks have appeared, as well as the large reverse die crack from 50c up through the left field. The overdate is still strong as is the eagle's head.



Example #3....O-101?
Now we have what I propose to call the "b" state! Attempts have been made to lap away some of the obverse clashing, resulting in a weakened overdate, But, now we have a cool new obverse clash, UNITED has appeared under stars 9-13! On the reverse, the large crack has become heavy, and most importantly, the eagle's head has been almost entirely lapped off....



So there you have it...I'm not sure if there is any real cause to create an official "b" state here, but it is perhaps an interesting thing to discuss....
Maybe we can come up with more images of the various in-between states ?

Oh yeah, thanks to Dizzyfoxx and LVGT for letting me use their coins in this thread!

slumlord98

is that a crack or clash at 50 on reverse? Looks like a clash, no?

Edited to add: Eagle's head doesn't appear lapped, just poorly struck up.

LanLord

I guess what would seal the deal for me to go with a "b" state would be to find other examples of it.

It's certainly cool looking, wish I had one in that state. I guess something else to look for.

Thanks for the picture review.

TomB

I see what looks like a pretty decent die clash on the reverse of what you propose to be O.101a, but do not see a die crack.

jayPem

Tom, the crack actually lines up perfectly with the cap clash where it begins (right from the top of 0)...you can see it faintly in between the right claw and the right wing tip, and then on the other side of the wing tip arcing upwards.

These are maybe not the most ideal images for the truly prime 101, or a more fully developed 101a, but I do believe that those are the right designations for the two coins.
Hopefully we'll get more images soon that really help illustrate the progress from start to finish !

Lanlord and slumlord (and Lordmarcovan too, if he's interested)...I have seen several examples of this die state. There are quite a few in the Heritage archives as a matter of fact.
The missing eagle head shows up more frequently than the UNITED clash, but that could be because it might have been removed from the die and the die still used for awhile, who knows...

zap1111

That UNITED clash on the obverse of your proposed "b" state is new to me for this date. Cool. Thanks for an interesting thread!

I don't see a "b" die state listed on the BHNC listing of die states.

zap

JRocco

Lance took a nice image of mine.
I'll add it for the conversation.

SmEagle1795

Here's an example I owned, an NGC MS63, which I've since sold:

jayPem

Wow Small Eagle...I'm pretty sure the strike on your old coin was the one that broke the dies !

That's exactly what the thread needs... images that tell a part of the story.
This is still the 101 variety, no die crack yet, but obviously displaying some serious clashing. Those clash marks we're probably lapped off pretty quickly, since it's not very common to see the banner clashed to the left of the bust...or else it took a really excellent strike like this to make them show up ?

jayPem

JRocco, really cool 101a.
The reverse crack is there, and the most commonly seen clash marks too. High grade examples like yours and SmEagle1795's are much better for studying these !
Hopefully we'll get a few more....

maibockaddict

My late die state example

The die lump under star 13 is gone, the one inside 0 in 50 is faint. Most of the second die crack above UNITED is present.

slumlord98

All I see is two clashes from the cap. Also, if you think the reverse was lapped because the eagle's head is weak, compare to 1814 O.108.

BustHalfBrian

Mine's an 'a', no later. The stars still have good form, which leads me to believe the die cracks had just developed when my coin was struck.

jayPem

Slumlord, E/A does have a notoriously weak eagle head, that's true.
Of course there's no way I could tell what actually happened to the 17/3 reverse, just a hunch, something to talk about

jayPem

Brian, once again, that's a great coin !
It's cool to see that the die defects are strong on yours ( left of star 13, between 5 and 0, inside 0)

All these pics are great for trying to figure out how those lumps appeared and disappeared...my three coins may all be a bit too worn to be super helpful....

jayPem

Dave, that one is getting to be pretty late....
What's your thought on the eagle head ? Lapped away or poorly struck ?

Vbowling299

This is my example with the lapped head...I always thought it was a touch under graded due to the lack of the eagle's head...still has some nice luster for the grade! Now CAC'd.

(If someone can post these here it would be helpful!)

1817/3 NGC25

maibockaddict

<< <i>Dave, that one is getting to be pretty late....
What's your thought on the eagle head ? Lapped away or poorly struck ? >>



For mine they had lapped both dies prior to striking this one. As I had mentioned the die lumps have been removed, as well as clashes. Rather weak detail both sides.

Not sure it just isn't strike on yours or if it is lapping. Going by the stars, mine appears to be slightly later. Overton mentions the second reverse crack as an indication of being the final die state which also suggest mine after yours.

grip

Great educational thread. Thanks All.

johnny9434

nice coin all

lkeigwin

Another 101a. Under magnification you can just make out the onset of the faint late die state crack Overton notes ("fine crack from leaves through UN and to edge above E in UNITED"). Not strong enough to count.

And, just for fun, jayPem's clashed stars in example #3.
Lance.

lkeigwin

Here's a VEDS from AU58WALKERS. Sharp stars, no cracks or die lumps, no clashing. The pitting around the banner (and to a lesser extent around the jaw) might be due to rust on the 4 year old die. The surrounding bluish color makes me think PMD.
Lance.

jayPem

Lance, that is some seriously weird stuff going on with that last coin...very odd and specific places for someone to be doing grafitti ?
I like it any way.

I was hoping we might get a couple more weak struck/lapped eagles head pieces here from members collections.
Might need to dig some up

jayPem

This one has the clash unde the stars...actually looks like MERICA MS 63,
Here's another with the clashed letters and what appears to be the weak eagle head Text
And another with the clash and weak head Viola
Clashed stars, weak head, better grade...AU50

Hard to say if there is any evidence here of lapping versus weak strike on the eagles head....would be great to see a real high grade example.

lkeigwin

Right. The star 9-13 clashing would be AMERICA, not UNITED, of course.

Those are some great examples, Jordy. How about posting the pix to this thread? The last one has a clear LDS reverse crack through UNITE.
Lance.

jayPem

I guess that really is the right thing to do Lance...
I'm pretty sure the NGC coin was already linked on page one, but here they all are. On a side note, collectivecoin makes it super easy to link these pics (once I got a little help from scubafuel..)

RotatedRainbows

I bought this piece from Sheridan Downey back in 1987, he graded as FINE it now resides in an old anacs slab as F15.

scubafuel

In these images I seem to see different stages of the eagles head being lapped away. Would lapping at the mint happen all at once, or might they have worked on the die, struck some halves, and then worked on it again?

Of course, the differences could be due to strike pressure as well.

jayPem

Scubafuel, that's the same thought I've ended up having.
Or perhaps one heavy lapping, and then varying strike pressures afterward created variety of different looking heads...but how will we ever know ?

maibockaddict

Just for fun here is another 101a (photos by Lance)