Just another day at the shop......................well, not quite. I added a picture of one coin.

keets

So we get a call from our other store that there is a guy offering an 1893-S Morgan Dollar in a PCGS AU50 holder for sale. The store is a Pawn Shop about 15 minutes away that also does coins, although the manager isn't a very sharp blade and has minimal interest in coins. My boss jumps in his car to check things out and 20 minutes later in strolls a guy offering, you guessed it, an 1893-S Morgan Dollar, only this one is a PCGS AU53. A quick glance reveals it to be a counterfeit that was probably cast with very poor workmanship around the date. I told the guy as much and as we talked I did a cert. check at this site and followed a link to Heritage of a sale. He seemed curious to know how I could tell it was a counterfeit and as I explained it to him I also showed him the cert. verification and auction link.

As we were doing that I took a call from my boss at the other store and I told him that the guy was with me now. He told me to try to keep him in the store and that they were calling the police, but it was too late. The guy knew something was up so he headed for the door with me calling to him, got outside and glanced around before dashing to his car. We tried to get his plate number but he was really moving!!! The police showed up about 10 minutes later, took what we could give them and also went to the other store to get video footage.

Hopefully he'll pop up and find himself behind bars.

Al H.

--- here's a picture of one counterfeit coin in a counterfeit PCGS holder.

ModCrewman

So you're saying he may not have been an innocent victim?

kaz

No, not an average day! Nice work. Hope the cops find the guy.

keets

when he showed up at my counter I assumed it was the coin that he tried to sell at the other store, that he had failed there and my boss had missed him. we talked while I was looking at it , he explained his brother gave it to him in repayment of a debt. there was no reason for me to think anything past him being just another guy that had gotten duped by a counterfeit coin in a counterfeit holder with a good cert. number. he actually seemed surprised that I knew it was a phony, could show him on the coin why I thought that and was able to follow up with the online verification/link. he even told me his name but the transaction never got to the point where I asked for ID.

it wasn't until my boss called that I realized the guy was up to something and he figured out that I knew. that's when he split.

jmski52

What part of the country are you in? It sounds like he's going to be popping up frequently.

ms70

Did he leave the coin behind at your store? How about at the pawn shop?

Treashunt

scary.

Someone will get stuck with it

PerryHall

<< <i>Did he leave the coin behind at your store? How about at the pawn shop? >>



Why would he leave an expensive coin behind at a coin shop where he doesn't know the dealer?

Wabbit2313

<< <i>Did he leave the coin behind at your store? How about at the pawn shop? >>

guitarwes

<< <i>

<< <i>Did he leave the coin behind at your store? How about at the pawn shop? >>



Why would he leave an expensive coin behind at a coin shop where he doesn't know the dealer? >>



The guy knew something was up so he headed for the door with me calling to him, got outside and glanced around before dashing to his car.

I can see where ms70 thought he left the coin. I read the OP's sentence above like when the guy found out he was caught that he bolted for the door and left the coin behind in his hast.

garrynot

Hopefully there are fingerprints on the holder.

coindeuce

keets, you would have been better off playing along, to get him to name a price. Once you had his signature on an invoice and some form of ID, there would have been no chance that he could take flight. You could have put the weight on him to have to explain to LE where he got it from.

keets

keets, you would have been better off playing along

hindsight is always 20/20, the way things unfolded there was never an opportunity. when I realized it was a scam he knew I knew and the game was over. we have his ID from the other store with one of the coins and my boss is heading to the local Sherriff and then the FBI tomorrow.

Coinsponge

Do you think this was a small time scammer trying to pull a fast one with Alibaba fakes or part of a larger coordinated ring?

keets

Do you think this was a small time scammer trying to pull a fast one with Alibaba fakes or part of a larger coordinated ring?

I can't answer that but the links below to Heritage are the ones that were counterfeited.

AU50.
AU53.

ms70

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Did he leave the coin behind at your store? How about at the pawn shop? >>



Why would he leave an expensive coin behind at a coin shop where he doesn't know the dealer? >>



The guy knew something was up so he headed for the door with me calling to him, got outside and glanced around before dashing to his car.

I can see where ms70 thought he left the coin. I read the OP's sentence above like when the guy found out he was caught that he bolted for the door and left the coin behind in his hast. >>



Thank you, that's exactly right. I thought maybe he ran out in a panic while keets was still holding it. I really don't get how that was hard to infer.

khayse

Great, now I'll never be able to sell that coin I won at Heritage 3 years ago...



-KHayse

bestday

<< <i>Do you think this was a small time scammer trying to pull a fast one with Alibaba fakes or part of a larger coordinated ring?

I can't answer that but the links below to Heritage are the ones that were counterfeited.

AU50.
AU53. >>



what were the tells that tipped off the phony coin besides the rarity

koynekwest

A local jewelry shop down here in Akron got a call a couple weeks ago from a gentleman trying to sell a '93-S dollar also in a PCGS slab, only his was MS65 and at a bargain price of 5 grand. Could there be a connection?????

OldEastside

Dumb Question ?...........Say they catch this pud.......what kind of charges can they bring against him other than fraud ?

Steve

DaveWcoins

<< <i>
we have his ID from the other store with one of the coins and my boss is heading to the local Sherriff and then the FBI tomorrow. >>



Excellent!

I've got a feeling this guy is gonna be caught.

TommyType

<< <i>Dumb Question ?...........Say they catch this pud.......what kind of charges can they bring against him other than fraud ?

Steve >>



Just as important: If he had done it only ONCE, could they really charge him with anything? "I didn't know it was fake. I know nothing about coins, and just offered what I had."

Doing it twice, in two separate transactions, kind of shoots a hole in the "I didn't know" defense....

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>A local jewelry shop down here in Akron got a call a couple weeks ago from a gentleman trying to sell a '93-S dollar also in a PCGS slab, only his was MS65 and at a bargain price of 5 grand. Could there be a connection????? >>



Sounds like a guy selling his grading set!

amwldcoin

So did the pawn shop buy one of the coins?????

Wabbit2313

<< <i>
we have his ID from the other store with one of the coins and my boss is heading to the local Sheriff and then the FBI tomorrow. >>



I think you need the Secret Service with counterfeiting. Add them to your list.

Also, if the dude turns out to be not guilty of anything, and he finds a good lawyer.......................

keets

what were the tells that tipped off the phony coin besides the rarity

the area around the date was terrible and overall it didn't "look" right. though I am far, far from knowledgeable with counterfeits and Morgan Dollars it was pretty clear even in the PCGS holder. I will take a picture this evening and post the AU50.

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>
we have his ID from the other store with one of the coins and my boss is heading to the local Sheriff and then the FBI tomorrow. >>



I think you need the Secret Service with counterfeiting. Add them to your list.

Also, if the dude turns out to be not guilty of anything, and he finds a good lawyer....................... >>



I think the Secret Service is currently occupied with trying to secure the White House.

OldEastside

<< <i>

<< <i>Dumb Question ?...........Say they catch this pud.......what kind of charges can they bring against him other than fraud ?

Steve >>



Just as important: If he had done it only ONCE, could they really charge him with anything? "I didn't know it was fake. I know nothing about coins, and just offered what I had."

Doing it twice, in two separate transactions, kind of shoots a hole in the "I didn't know" defense.... >>



GOOD POINT, as well as these two coins are in the price guide at better than 20 grand each and it would
also be LIKE.....Identity Fraud as these two coins are certified and have there own prominence in the hobby

Steve

telephoto1

The Alibaba style fakes usually aren't too hard to tell. The strikes are usually shallow, the date fonts aren't quite right, and some (but admittedly not all) have more of a 1921-style eagle reverse.
And of course the labels are all usually from the same group of numbers.

keets

I think the Secret Service is currently occupied with trying to secure the White House

PerryHall

<< <i>The Alibaba style fakes usually aren't too hard to tell. The strikes are usually shallow, the date fonts aren't quite right, and some (but admittedly not all) have more of a 1921-style eagle reverse.
And of course the labels are all usually from the same group of numbers. >>



Many aren't even struck. They are cast in a homemade mold.

Justlooking

I don't know how you prove the guy knew it was a fake, unless you find the dies in his garage.

keets

well, the way he got out the door, looked around, dashed for his car(that was parked in an adjoining lot) and then peeled rubber down the road before he ran the STOP sign sort of sealed it for me!!

kranky

Definitely an exciting time at the shop, keets!

keets

TTT with a picture in the OP.

ModCrewman

Interesting that the coin has a little bit of toning on it, toning that I'd call NT.

ms70

Wow. Not being a Morgan guy, the coin might have slid by me but I would've picked up on the slab being fake.

Swampboy

Good work Keets.

Those lips are a dead give away too.
They make Miss Liberty look like Nate from State Farm.

keets

this one doesn't look that bad......................when compared to the one I was offered.

lasvegasteddy

awesome job there keets
hopefully they catch that rat and he squeals if he wasn't a lone ranger in this