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1877 ihc PCGS newp. GTG

Recently sold my old 1877 and upgraded to this one. Just received it today, its a beauty!
Guesses on the grade?
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Comments

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not my series (or even metal), but I'd guess XF.
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF35
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm on the fence between 35 and 40.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,839 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My opinion is basically worthless but I'll go 40
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭
    In a 35 holder
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My grade is VF-30, but I know the slab grade is probably higher. It has EF-40 sharpness, loses points for a few nicks, the disturbed color, spots and surfaces on the reverse.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
    In a XF45 holder.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF35.

    As Bill said, the disturbed color, spots and digs hold it back.
    Lance.
  • themasterthemaster Posts: 676 ✭✭✭
    40, nice pick-up.


    Have a Great Day!
    Louis
    "If you would know the value of money, go and try to borrow some." Benjamin Franklin
  • jcpingjcping Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    VF-30
    an SLQ and Ike dollars lover
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF35
    When in doubt, don't.
  • Bigbuck1975Bigbuck1975 Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS VF35
  • DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,791 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF35 . . .lots to say about it going XF40, but there are a few issues, so I think it would net grade VF35 . .

    Drunner
  • VF35 on the right day 40
  • Well, a lot of you got it right. I have looked at the most recent 10 vf35s on heritage, and none of them equaled this coin in detail. The "issues" are overmagnified in the pictures. I cannot really see any nicks with the naked eye, but a few light nicks on the face come out under a loupe. The obverse is pretty evenly toned. The reverse has some light yellow streaking, that is clearly part of the planchet. I think what most of you are looking at is the black spots. There is quite a bit of "gunk" which make up the black spots. Under a loupe, the black spots are clearly raised on the surface. I dont know if an acetone bath would take care of it....but clearly something stronger like verdicare would remove it. This must be the reason for the lower grade, because nothing else I see could really affect the grade. I should also add that the slab is scuffed in the central area of the reverse, which alters the look some.

    [URL=http://s44.photobucket.com/user/johnny54321/media/77_slab.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    All coins kept in safety deposit box.
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are right about the nice detail on the coin. If it were mine I would crack it out and then give an acetone dip to hopefully clean it up and then put in my album.

    OINK
  • ArizonaJackArizonaJack Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You are right about the nice detail on the coin. If it were mine I would crack it out and then give an acetone dip to hopefully clean it up and then put in my album.

    OINK >>



    You know, I thought same thing. Thats a Dansco coin right there. Some gentle preservation and that would be Suwweeeet in a raw circulated set image
    " YOU SUCK " Awarded 5/18/08
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF35 is a fair grade for the coin - and as you know, many of today's VF35 '77's were yesterday's VF20 coins.

    I also concur that an acetone bath may be a good idea - though something like the old Blue Ribbon may be more effective on those spots.
    For all the purists out there who say never 'clean' your coins, I'd be more concerned about the affect of those green spots
    on the copper coin over time, then performing some careful conservation work now.


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  • For comparison sake, I copied obverse pics of the last 6 vf35s I could find on Heritage. One PCGS example(the last one in the series of pics) looks like it might have full lib and rails...but the rest are severely lacking. Even the CAC examples don't really make the full lib/rails cut. What are your thoughts on these? Do the TPGs just notoriously overgrade 1877 ihcs, or do you think they are graded correctly but are more weakly struck than my example??
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    All coins kept in safety deposit box.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice pickup.
  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice details on that Key Date!
    BTW Your coin is way betterimage
    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • I must say I like this game of guessing and then seeing the result.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>For comparison sake, I copied obverse pics of the last 6 vf35s I could find on Heritage. One PCGS example(the last one in the series of pics) looks like it might have full lib and rails...but the rest are severely lacking. Even the CAC examples don't really make the full lib/rails cut. What are your thoughts on these? Do the TPGs just notoriously overgrade 1877 ihcs, or do you think they are graded correctly but are more weakly struck than my example?? >>

    Graded correctly.

    Again, your 1877 has XF details but was net graded because of issues discussed earlier.
    Lance.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Frankly, some of the coins posted barely make VF20.

    This is a good example of what Rick Snow posted some time ago, that the services are overgrading this date, and as a consequence,
    prices are falling. Certainly drop off in demand could also be at play.....but there is an $800 price spread on the sheets between VF20 and XF40.
    If these are what the current market is calling 'nearly XF', I can understand why they wouldn't be bringing 'nearly XF' money. And I don't even want
    to hazard a guess at what VF20 coins look like now.


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  • coindudeonebaycoindudeonebay Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Genuine, PMD.
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree the OP coin has XF details and I believe the face hit is what downgraded it. That said, compared to those others above it is a "monster" 35.
    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • The big difference I see in the OP coin ist that the fields are a mess and the coins posted for reference have much cleaner fields. That will play a part in the grade as it is not just how the face looks but the whole coin....
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You can't grade by comparison. You must grade to standards. None of the comparison coins make it to the grade assigned using standards that collectors of Indian cents are used to.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭

    I had an immediate AU 53 the second I saw the OP coin.

    I was floored by the other VF responses.
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • Thank you all for your inputs. Though I don't agree with all of them, I appreciate the insight.

    Walker21D: Your post makes a lot of sense to me. I have noticed this date, along with other semi-keys in the 1870s severely overgraded. Even XF40 examples are present with incomplete libertys, and though I know strike plays a role, the overgrading seems to go beyond that. I also have seen the trend go downward in price...so what your saying adds up about TPGs potentially hurting the market with overgrading. So it is very possible, based on the comparisons I showed, that my coin is correctly graded when compared to a sea of overgraded coins.

    lostincoins: How are the fields on my coin a mess? The obverse fields are terrific imho, which is all we can really compare with the other coins on, since all I posted of the others were the obverse fields(mainly just to keep from posting a trillion pics). Honestly, I think the hits on the face are inconsequential. I cant even see them without a loupe, and even with one, they are hardly distracting. I would rofl if someone told me that these marks could in any way shape or form result in a detail grade or genuine slab. The 1st heritage example I posted vf35 CAC has a much larger more obtrusive scratch at 1oclock above the crown. The obverse field certainly isn't a mess, nor does it have what Id consider PMD.

    However, the reverse, I do concede is less attractive overall. The planchet streaking throws off the "even toned" look, and the black gunk is not eye appealing in the slightest. If anything downgraded this coin detail-wise, it would be the reverse imho.

    Eagleeye: Can you expand a bit on your explanation of standards? I usually use TPGs to define standards, so comparing against them is usually how I go. I don't try to seek overgraded coins, and in this example, I simply picked the 6 most recent examples I could find on Heritage. There was no attempt to cherrypick overgraded examples that supported my conclusion. Are you saying that these 6 examples I picked fall short of the collector defined "standard"?....and how does one go about figuring out a collector defined "standard? As always, I really respect your opinion. You probably don't remember, but I met you at the Long Beach Coin Show on Thursday, and purchased an 1872 PCGS VF30 RPD5 from you. I absolutely love it and is now cracked out and part of my IHC DANSCO collection.

    Fadetoblack: I got your comment now, and I got it the first time you mentioned it. I am not a photobucket expert. I looked for a link to turn it off and couldn't find one based on your previous comments. I did not look for too long, because in all honesty, it is not of high priority to me, and you seem to be the only one who is really put off by the extra text next to the photo. In addition, it is usually the only input you ever offer me in any of my threads. If you want to PM me a tutorial, feel free and I will work on it next time I enter photobucket. Otherwise, since your obviously offended by a bit of text next to my pictures, please refrain from posting in my threads or even viewing them for that matter.

    Cheers to all!! A
    All coins kept in safety deposit box.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How to fix Photobucket settings to remove extraneous html code from posted images:

    At any PB page click on your user name, upper right.
    Then click on "User Settings".
    Click on the "Albums" tab.
    Scroll down. Under "Link back option" uncheck "Link back to albums"
    "Save"
    Lance.
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From another point of view, I would tell you that I like the coin as MS35, I would not consider the coin if graded XF. You can always compare it to other VF35's, but comparison to an XF grade would be more helpful. I suspect it would have been an XF grade but was net graded to VF35 due to an "excessive" number of dings on the obverse, or due to questionable deposits of some kind on the reverse.

    You could also crack it, dip it in acetone and resubmit it raw.

    OINK
  • I agree with the VF35 grade-- that's a nice coin.
  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I had an immediate AU 53 the second I saw the OP coin.

    I was floored by the other VF responses. >>



    I agree. At first glance, I saw a nice coin with LOTS of meat. As I looked at it for 'grading' purposes, I was leaning towards a 40. I wish I had given my guess before it was posted.

    Some of the others you show, as much 'worse' as they look, as has been said, you can't grade by comparison....but if you could, SOME of them, again, was said, I thought 'how the hell are those even VF's?'.

    As an aside, that first CAC VF35, is it my eyes starting to go, or does there look like some kind of doubling over the bridge of the nose, and the chin? The chin on that one looks flat out doubled...could be PMD, but with what looks like doubling over the nose, IS the chin and bridge of the nose doubled? And I agree, yours was held back due to the reverse. Dip that thing in something, get that crap off, get your XF grade. As for the Dansco thing, man, in MY eyes (and wallet), that's a pricey 'hole filler'. After a 'conservation', I see that getting the XF it SHOULD have. Crack it, get that thing cleaned off, er, conserved...image, and enjoy that meaty XF key date IHC!!! Nice pick-up, pound for pound.

    As an aside, I just Googled 'potential', and found this coin's image on page 2....image
    I'll come up with something.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Grading standards in use in the 1990s held that an XF should have separation between the lower hair curl and the ribbon. XF45, full diamonds. The last edition of the ANA grading guide went very vague on the definitions and the grading services started to overgrade circ issue of many series. The Fly-in Club has maintained the old grading standards and has refused to follow the overgrading trend. Now there is Fly-In Club grading and commercial grading. Just like there is EAC grading and commercial grading.

    The market sufferers when overgraded coins are in accepted holders. If you refuse to buy them at the market, they will sell cheap, lowering the market.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • From Rick Snow "The Grading standards in use in the 1990s held that an XF should have separation between the lower hair curl and the ribbon. XF45, full diamonds. The last edition of the ANA grading guide went very vague on the definitions and the grading services started to overgrade circ issue of many series. The Fly-in Club has maintained the old grading standards and has refused to follow the overgrading trend. Now there is Fly-In Club grading and commercial grading. Just like there is EAC grading and commercial grading.

    The market sufferers when overgraded coins are in accepted holders. If you refuse to buy them at the market, they will sell cheap, lowering the market. "

    That makes sense, and there is a HUGE discrepancy between the grading standards you mentioned and the current market trend. Someone mentioned comparing these to XF examples, so if I get a chance tonight, I will pull off the 1st 6 most recently sold XF examples off of Heritage to compare with this coin. I havent looked, but I am willing to bet that there will be at least 1 or 2 XFs that dont even have full liberty's much less full bottom rails. Does anyone want to take bets?? :-)
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  • Cracked this one out for the album. I gave a light acetone bath as was recommended(only 20 minutes, bathing coins of this value is a bit scary), and seeing some improvement on the reverse. Yeah?
    Before:
    image

    After:
    image
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  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,114 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Looks significantly better - kudos for having the chops to do this.
    Given enough time, that 'green stuff' may well have eaten into the metal and ruined the
    coin for all future generations. image
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  • RampageRampage Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭✭
    It looks much better without the gunk on the reverse. Nicely done.
  • Yes, much improved!
  • nwcoastnwcoast Posts: 2,826 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent conservation work!!!image

    Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014

  • Looks much better now and I my self would drop it one more time just to finish what you already started. I would say it could jump a grade looking that much better.
  • originalisbestoriginalisbest Posts: 5,911 ✭✭✭✭
    Echoing the other comments - well done, and much better for the coin!
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    VF25 was my first impression. Probably a bit conservative, so I'll say VF30 and still probably remain on the conservative side of the fence.

    Nice coin. The best 1877 IHC I've had to date was only a G-VG raw example, and it had some issues. (But I only had about four bucks in it.)*

    Edit: just scrolled down to see the grade. 35, eh? I'd say that's about right.

    Edit (again, after scrolling down further): the acetone treatment looks to have made a definite improvement in the eye appeal. Nicely done.

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  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice work with the acetone. definite improvement. i hope you rinsed with distilled water.

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