An unusual 1922 Peace Dollar...

MrEureka

leothelyon

If I had to note, looks like an EDS that circulated.

coindeuce

Acutely squared border to rim ? I don't like the idea that the RedBook editors listed them under the price column for Matte Proof though. No way the machinery or dies could sustain making 35K examples. And even if they did, there would be a hellalot more 1922's extant with the characteristics.

leothelyon

<< <i>Fake, just look at the date etc, wowee! >>



Other than someone practicing their counterfeiting skills, I don't see why they would counterfeit a common date and to make it look circulated?

crypto79

Actually looks like one of the med relief coins that were recalled. Enough details are right that I bet it isn't fake but not the kind of picture where I would put money on the bet.

nwcoast

<< <i>Actually looks like one of the med relief coins that were recalled. Enough details are right that I bet it isn't fake but not the kind of picture where I would put money on the bet. >>




+1

stealer

Looks like a sweet circ proof.

Wolf359

The Hot 50 book has this coin in a photo from about 15 years ago.

Treashunt

higher relief?

lostincoins

looks similar, also remember that proof dies were used to make circ coins also.

DHeath

Fake, just look at the date etc, wowee!

+1

mercurydimeguy

My vote is that it is neither a fake nor a circulated proof.

It looks as though it is legit, and actually made/minted, but I think it is a circulated Pattern coin. Perhaps one of the patterns considered for making coins from 1922 onward, that somehow got out into circulation.

Purely speculative on my part, but if I logically think about what this coin could be without having the ability to examine it in hand (critical to make a more educated guess), logic tells me this is a circulated Pattern.

BryceM

Very cool. One thing it is certainly not is a regular issue low-relief coin. The sharpness of the lettering, the detail of the hair, and profile of the portrait are all different. The coin shown matches precisely the photograph in Burdette's book under the heading 1922 Pattern - Medium Relief. It lists a mintage of 3,200 pieces. All but a unique piece found in a bag of circulated dollars are thought to have been melted. It's listed as Judd-2020.

If any of you find an identical "fake" coin, please send it to me for disposal.

CaptHenway

They mis-spelt "TRVST"!

ricko

Interesting.... I vote authentic..... Cheers, RickO

Lakesammman

J2020?? That would be a fun one to own!

coindeuce

<< <i>J-2020?? That would be a fun one to own! >>



I suppose it makes sense that a member who specializes in Pattern issues would start this thread.

MrEureka

I suppose it makes sense that a member who specializes in Pattern issues would start this thread.


I also collect contemporary counterfeits.

Overdate

So how was this coin found and where is it now?

blu62vette

<< <i>I suppose it makes sense that a member who specializes in Pattern issues would start this thread.


I also collect contemporary counterfeits. >>



Oh sure, throw another loop in there!

BryceM

Well, if it's counterfeit, Burdette has a little problem in his book.

MrEureka

Lostincoins- that coin is not struck from the usual 1922 proof die. Although it may still be proof. Not sure about that.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
first thing i would do is put the obv image of this, a couple normal 1922 and a couple 1921 images all next to each other.

even since proof dies were used to strike business flans, this coin is hammered and i doubt it is a normal business coin.

the images are way too small for me to comment further, at least effectively. same goes for authentication.

for sure it will be fun running it down.
.

BryceM

The one thing that's interesting to me is the shape of Liberty's nose, nostril, and eye when compared to a regular Peace dollar. I can't exactly put my finger on it, but I remember thinking this looked slightly different when going through Burrdette's book. They did quite a bit of tinkering with things at the end of 21 and in the first part of 22. It's not inconceivable that a few details were changed.

I look at the loss of detail on production peace dollars as one of the most unfortunate things that happened to 20th century US coinage. The boys were just getting the hang of the reducing Janvier lathe and they went from concept design to final coins in an incredibly short period of time. The relief of the 21 is gorgeous, but even these show loss of definition in the lettering and along the rims. They're almost universally poorly struck too. If the regular business-strike coins could have been produced like this this one, the series would have been as beautiful as anything the mint ever produced. With all the scabs and mushiness, the series squeaks by with a final grade of "incredibly cool".

lostincoins

Here is a 21 to compare sorry the coin is at a slight angle. It gives a good idea of facial features.
If the OP dollar is a pattern what would keep it from being a proof the way it is?

crypto79

<< <i>Lostincoins- that coin is not struck from the usual 1922 proof die. Although it may still be proof. Not sure about that. >>




Considering it was struck for release and then melted doesn't speak to either being a proof or pattern. 3200 is a lot for either of those types. If was struck for circulation on slightly lower relief dies and the mint still experienced die failures at an unacceptable rate and went back and lowered the relief some more later melting the coins already struck. What that coin is a survivor of a failed experiment and possiblely unique. It will never be known if it was a prototype of the ill fated batch or a keep sake of the production striking as no other comparables are known. I would guess the later as it would have been exsposed to losser controls and "prototypes" would have been kept or preserved or melted.
But I conceded it is just guessing

lostincoins

Crypto for a guess that is a lot of good information. Is there no way to compare this coin using known dies or pics of some sort? Would this coin be completely precluded from being a proof as the strike is so clean?

messydesk

I like it!

superpsychmd

I actually have one which I always felt could be a circ proof, and mine has a planchet defect on the cheek. The rims are prominent like mr. Eureka's coin. No one I showed it to thought much of it but I now have to look at it again.

veryfine

<< <i>I look at the loss of detail on production peace dollars as one of the most unfortunate things that happened to 20th century US coinage. The boys were just getting the hang of the reducing Janvier lathe and they went from concept design to final coins in an incredibly short period of time. The relief of the 21 is gorgeous, but even these show loss of definition in the lettering and along the rims. They're almost universally poorly struck too. If the regular business-strike coins could have been produced like this this one, the series would have been as beautiful as anything the mint ever produced. With all the scabs and mushiness, the series squeaks by with a final grade of "incredibly cool". >>


I agree, but look at it this way; at least the 1921, with all of its striking flaws had a relatively high mintage and also reached the general public. On the flip side, another beautiful coin, the high relief 1907 St Gaudens $20 is "unaffordable" leaving the average collector with date after date of flat, ultra low relief gold disks.

MrEureka

To avoid confusion, let's make it clear that the following is regarding the image posted by Lostincoins, which is not the coin in the OP, but of the coin sold by the Goldbergs yesterday. That coin is in a PCGS PR64 holder.

<< Lostincoins- that coin is not struck from the usual 1922 proof die. Although it may still be proof. Not sure about that. >>

Considering it was struck for release and then melted doesn't speak to either being a proof or pattern. 3200 is a lot for either of those types. If was struck for circulation on slightly lower relief dies and the mint still experienced die failures at an unacceptable rate and went back and lowered the relief some more later melting the coins already struck. What that coin is a survivor of a failed experiment and possiblely unique. It will never be known if it was a prototype of the ill fated batch or a keep sake of the production striking as no other comparables are known. I would guess the later as it would have been exsposed to losser controls and "prototypes" would have been kept or preserved or melted.
But I conceded it is just guessing


This coin was, however, given a special finish, similar to but not identical to that of the usual 1922 Matte Proofs. Furthermore, the edges are squared even more significantly than the usual 22 Matte Proofs. (BTW, the two other coins known from these "business strike" dies were not "matted".) As far as I'm concerned, I'm not sure what the coin is, only that it's probably unique.

MrEureka

Here's a picture of J-2019, which was sold by Stack's a few years ago. Note that it received no special finish.

crypto79

<< <i>To avoid confusion, let's make it clear that the following is regarding the image posted by Lostincoins, which is not the coin in the OP, but of the coin sold by the Goldbergs yesterday. That coin is in a PCGS PR64 holder.

<< Lostincoins- that coin is not struck from the usual 1922 proof die. Although it may still be proof. Not sure about that. >>

Considering it was struck for release and then melted doesn't speak to either being a proof or pattern. 3200 is a lot for either of those types. If was struck for circulation on slightly lower relief dies and the mint still experienced die failures at an unacceptable rate and went back and lowered the relief some more later melting the coins already struck. What that coin is a survivor of a failed experiment and possiblely unique. It will never be known if it was a prototype of the ill fated batch or a keep sake of the production striking as no other comparables are known. I would guess the later as it would have been exsposed to losser controls and "prototypes" would have been kept or preserved or melted.
But I conceded it is just guessing


This coin was, however, given a special finish, similar to but not identical to that of the usual 1922 Matte Proofs. Furthermore, the edges are squared even more significantly than the usual 22 Matte Proofs. (BTW, the two other coins known from these "business strike" dies were not "matted".) As far as I'm concerned, I'm not sure what the coin is, only that it's probably unique. >>




Not sure I agree with you Andy. The coin in the above post is one of the 22 HR cir strikes that are floating around (2-3 all impaired). The coin in your OP is a Medium relief coin form completely different dies and none are known with fancy finishes. Note the Ray above One on the Rev. The Med Relief coins where only produced for production but the dies still failed causing yet another lowering to the eventual relief we know and sort of love.

To be clear there are 5 specific types of 1922 Peace dollars with a few subtypes. (EDITED TO ADD RECENT COIN)

1922 HR proofs (both satin and matte finishes)
1922 HR Cir Strikes with a rev die of 1921 type
1922 HR Rev of 21 (Proof/special finish fully struck)
1922 Med relief
1922 low relief (two different Rev hub types both common)

MrEureka

Crypto -

You're missing the Goldberg coin posted by Lostincoins, which is from the circulating high relief dies (J-2019) but with a special finish.

crypto79

<< <i>Crypto -

You're missing the Goldberg coin posted by Lostincoins, which is from the circulating high relief dies (J-2019) but with a special finish. >>



You're right, I forgot about the recent discovery but it is still a different set of dies form your OP. Are you purposing that the Med reliefs are simply worn Proofs which they share a similar hub style but RWB showed with overlays where different esp with the date placement?

MrEureka

Are you purposing that the Med reliefs are simply worn Proofs…?

Not at all. We're dealing with three different unadopted variations. The only thing new is that one of Goldberg coins has a previously unreported matte-like finish.

crypto79

<< <i>Are you purposing that the Med reliefs are simply worn Proofs…?

Not at all. We're dealing with three different unadopted variations. The only thing new is that one of Goldberg coins has a previously unreported matte-like finish. >>



Sorry I get you now. I agree

MrEureka

Actually, now that I look closer, I realize that the J-2019 reverse does not perfectly match the Goldberg coin. Most obviously, compare the rays between the feathers and the rock. This might be a completely new reverse die!

ProofArtworkonCircs

Looks authentic to me.

lostincoins

Sorry for the bad pic it is at an angle and older this coin is in the SDB right now or I would reimage for you. The is the reverse of the 21 for a comparison.

lostincoins

Andy and Crypto I see a significant difference in the ray closest to the rock, is this what you are seeing? It appears to be of a higher profile and cleaner line.

telephoto1

Given the differences in hair and rays I vote circ. pattern.

CaptHenway

<< <i>To avoid confusion, let's make it clear that the following is regarding the image posted by Lostincoins, which is not the coin in the OP, but of the coin sold by the Goldbergs yesterday. That coin is in a PCGS PR64 holder.

<< Lostincoins- that coin is not struck from the usual 1922 proof die. Although it may still be proof. Not sure about that. >>

Considering it was struck for release and then melted doesn't speak to either being a proof or pattern. 3200 is a lot for either of those types. If was struck for circulation on slightly lower relief dies and the mint still experienced die failures at an unacceptable rate and went back and lowered the relief some more later melting the coins already struck. What that coin is a survivor of a failed experiment and possiblely unique. It will never be known if it was a prototype of the ill fated batch or a keep sake of the production striking as no other comparables are known. I would guess the later as it would have been exsposed to losser controls and "prototypes" would have been kept or preserved or melted.
But I conceded it is just guessing


This coin was, however, given a special finish, similar to but not identical to that of the usual 1922 Matte Proofs. Furthermore, the edges are squared even more significantly than the usual 22 Matte Proofs. (BTW, the two other coins known from these "business strike" dies were not "matted".) As far as I'm concerned, I'm not sure what the coin is, only that it's probably unique. >>



What did the Goldberg coin realize?

Shamika

Is it just me or does this coin look double struck? The word GOD appears to have a second strike northwest (or southeast) of the original strike.

Treashunt

interesting

AUandAG

What is the specific gravity on this coin? Is it correct for US silver??

I don't doubt that it is real but if I hadn't read the thread before I chimed in, I would have said that
it is a fake.
Does it check out on the specs?

bob