Poll: Will the 1787 DBLN Brasher Doubloon top $10M

Author1 · January 8, 2014 3:03AM

This isn't my area of expertise but the last one to sell was an AU50 for $7.4M will the MS63 for sale currently at $4.2M sell for over $10M?

Auction Link

Broadstruck · January 8, 2014 3:25AM

The description is superb!

MidLifeCrisis · January 8, 2014 3:36AM

I hope so.

keyman64 · January 8, 2014 4:07AM

I think it has a shot. I will be there to find out.

L1ncolnF4n · January 8, 2014 4:21AM

I don't think it'll top $5.5kk

CaptHenway · January 8, 2014 4:36AM

<< This isn't my area of expertise but the last one to sell was an AU50 for $7.4M will the MS63 for sale currently at $4.2M sell for over $10M?

Auction Link >>

It isn't uncirculated.

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 5:22AM

<< 

<< This isn't my area of expertise but the last one to sell was an AU50 for $7.4M will the MS63 for sale currently at $4.2M sell for over $10M?

Auction Link >>

It isn't uncirculated. >>

And it's CAC

Veeeerry interesting

johnny9434 · January 8, 2014 5:27AM

if it does ill be happy for the seller, if not then move on and try another day. fwiw

hchcoin · January 8, 2014 5:42AM

<< The description is superb!

>>

Bayard1908 · January 8, 2014 6:06AM

I don't know if it will crack $10M; however, I expect it will exceed the 1794 dollar's price before the jump bid. I believe the current $10M record is analogous to the Roger Maris home run record, and should have a star next to it.

CaptHenway · January 8, 2014 6:34AM

<< 

<< 

<< This isn't my area of expertise but the last one to sell was an AU50 for $7.4M will the MS63 for sale currently at $4.2M sell for over $10M?

Auction Link >>

It isn't uncirculated. >>

And it's CAC

Veeeerry interesting >>

When I worked for the consignor 30 years ago, it was not Uncirculated. Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

MGLICKER · January 8, 2014 6:53AM

This thread has become quite revealing.

CoinJunkie · January 8, 2014 7:01AM

Ask Legend.

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 7:40AM

Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65.

roadrunner · January 8, 2014 7:49AM

<< Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65. >>

You 'll have to go a bit higher. I've seen high point rub even on a rare date, six figure, MS67 seated half. And finding a capped bust half with rub in one TPG's MS66 holder is not all that hard.

Uncirculated today varies by the era (18th, early 19th, mid-19th, late 19th, early 20th century, and then everything else). Uncirculated for an 18th or very early 19th century coin doesn't need much field luster. I've seen
MS62's with about 10-15% total luster remaining.

No $10 MILL bid unless someone jumps it a few million to recapture the title of highest price ever paid at auction.

Billet7 · January 8, 2014 7:52AM

The last one to sell was the EB on breast coin, I think that makes a big difference in value, but I may be wrong.

Author1 · January 8, 2014 8:01AM

<< Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65. >>

So CAC approved of rub on a MS63 coins? How can something in MS have rub on it and be strong for the grade? Maybe I'm missing something here.

yosclimber · January 8, 2014 8:04AM

Good reading at that auction link.

Personally, I don't see anything special about the "unique" punch on breast specimen.
It seems like a bit of Red Book hype.
All the punch locations vary.
You could further subdivide the punch locations, but they don't matter to me:
1. 50% on wing
2. 50% on wing, angled
3. 90% on wing
4. 30% on wing
5. 75% on wing, slightly angled
6. 80% on wing
[7.] on shield/breast

"Collect them all!" :-)

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 8:05AM

<< Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65. >>

As the unwashed masses newb, I can't comment much here on some coin and era of a coin I don't at all know. Even "that's cabinet friction" makes me wonder.

New interpretation of uncirculated?

Veeeery interesting.

Changing their mind on the condition of a slider coin with few known is more plausible.

The last few days have been unpleasantly enlightening all around.

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 8:14AM

<< 

<< Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65. >>

So CAC approved of rub on a MS63 coins? How can something in MS have rub on it and be strong for the grade? Maybe I'm missing something here. >>

Yes, you are missing something here. Rub is just one factor in grading a coin - it no longer tops a coin out at 58. The days of buying a beautiful gem with high point friction for less than a ratty beat up MS60 are over. That high point friction coin is now docked a point for the rub from what it otherwise would be and put in the appropriately priced holder.

WillieBoyd2 · January 8, 2014 8:15AM

The Heritage article and the story behind the coins was quite interesting.

I guess that by now a Brasher Doubloon is a coin.

I knew about the Dupont theft but I didn't know that another one had been stolen and recovered.

Because of my interest in coins in movies, I wondered if the article would mention the
1947 film "The Brasher Doubloon" (it did).

I am less interested in the selling price, which will be several million dollars,
or who buys it, probably some anonymous collector.

"The stuff that dreams are made of".

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 8:16AM

And, IMO, if one of the doubloons were to break $10M anytime soon it would be the Garrett coin

Author1 · January 8, 2014 8:22AM

<< 

<< 

<< Perhaps the definition of Uncirculated has changed.

In the context of the TPG's, it certainly has. What used to be AU ... a full luster coin with high point rub .... is now called MS. Now there's MS58 and AU61, 62, 63, 64 and even 65. >>

So CAC approved of rub on a MS63 coins? How can something in MS have rub on it and be strong for the grade? Maybe I'm missing something here. >>

Yes, you are missing something here. Rub is just one factor in grading a coin - it no longer tops a coin out at 58. The days of buying a beautiful gem with high point friction for less than a ratty beat up MS60 are over. That high point friction coin is now docked a point for the rub from what it otherwise would be and put in the appropriately priced holder. >>

So can something be in MS with just cabinet frication on it and so NGC and CAC just dock the coin points for historical mishandling but still call it MS?

It seems like rarities tend to get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to grading. Just look at the 1804 dollars.

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 8:45AM

Rarities such as 1804 dollars seem to be ranked with a grade rather than given a literal grade. So yes, they tend to move around a bit numerically until that ranking is accurate.

keyman64 · January 8, 2014 9:08AM

If one considers the 1787 a "COIN" and by some extension a "US COIN", then it is interesting that it is not included in the 3rd edition of the book, "100 Greatest U.S. Coins." If there is anything that holds this thing back, it might be this classification.

CoinJunkie · January 8, 2014 9:16AM

Baley · January 8, 2014 9:22AM

people still get hung up on "Mint State" and "Uncirculated" associated with grades 60 and up.

As TDN and others have noted, this kind of thinking is obsolete. What the 1-70 and + and designations such as strike quality, cameo quality, and copper color are doing is appraising the coin, and assigning a number that corresponds to the value, rather than grading it technically, and therefore out is the idea that a little high point rub absolutely positively precludes a grade above 58, and also obsolete is the idea that any hint of hairlines means "cleaned/bodybag", as it is not, nor has it ever been reasonable, that a beat up, bagmarked and luster-impaired but strictly no-rub MS60 is worth more than a beautiful, evenly toned, mark-free, well-struck coin with a hint of friction.

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 9:27AM

<< people still get hung up on "Mint State" and "Uncirculated" associated with grades 60 and up.

As TDN and others have noted, this kind of thinking is obsolete. What the 1-70 and + and designations such as strike quality, cameo quality, and copper color are doing is appraising the coin, and assigning a number that corresponds to the value, rather than grading it technically, and therefore out is the idea that a little high point rub absolutely positively precludes a grade above 58, and also obsolete is the idea that any hint of hairlines means "cleaned/bodybag", as it is not, nor has it ever been reasonable, that a beat up, bagmarked and luster-impaired but strictly no-rub MS60 is worth more than a beautiful, evenly toned, mark-free, well-struck coin with a hint of friction. >>

You said it better than I could. I agree!

keyman64 · January 8, 2014 9:45AM

<< 

<< people still get hung up on "Mint State" and "Uncirculated" associated with grades 60 and up.

As TDN and others have noted, this kind of thinking is obsolete. What the 1-70 and + and designations such as strike quality, cameo quality, and copper color are doing is appraising the coin, and assigning a number that corresponds to the value, rather than grading it technically, and therefore out is the idea that a little high point rub absolutely positively precludes a grade above 58, and also obsolete is the idea that any hint of hairlines means "cleaned/bodybag", as it is not, nor has it ever been reasonable, that a beat up, bagmarked and luster-impaired but strictly no-rub MS60 is worth more than a beautiful, evenly toned, mark-free, well-struck coin with a hint of friction. >>

You said it better than I could. I agree! >>

I agree except for when it comes to coins of the late 19th century and then 20th century. I have not seen any Mercury Dimes, late date Barber coinage, Washington Quarters etc...in say a MS67 holder that has a little rub on the high points. Maybe someone else has? It all comes down to the individual series?

tradedollarnut · January 8, 2014 9:56AM

<< 

<< 

<< people still get hung up on "Mint State" and "Uncirculated" associated with grades 60 and up.

As TDN and others have noted, this kind of thinking is obsolete. What the 1-70 and + and designations such as strike quality, cameo quality, and copper color are doing is appraising the coin, and assigning a number that corresponds to the value, rather than grading it technically, and therefore out is the idea that a little high point rub absolutely positively precludes a grade above 58, and also obsolete is the idea that any hint of hairlines means "cleaned/bodybag", as it is not, nor has it ever been reasonable, that a beat up, bagmarked and luster-impaired but strictly no-rub MS60 is worth more than a beautiful, evenly toned, mark-free, well-struck coin with a hint of friction. >>

You said it better than I could. I agree! >>

I agree except for when it comes to coins of the late 19th century and then 20th century. I have not seen any Mercury Dimes, late date Barber coinage, Washington Quarters etc...in say a MS67 holder that has a little rub on the high points. Maybe someone else has? It all comes down to the individual series?

>>

I cracked two rattler AU58 WLHs and they came back 64 and 65 respectively.

Baley · January 8, 2014 10:04AM

Yes, generally, earlier series get a lot more leeway with rub and hairlines than later series.. the kind of friction and contact marks that are allowable on pre-1808 coins in MS62, for example, would be grade-killers on something like a Washington quarter or Franklin half, or even Morgan, knocking it down to 58 or maybe even 55 or genuine, because, once again, they're net/market grading and collectors expect a more modern 62 to not have over 200 years of collector handling which rubs the rims and highpoints and to a certain degree, the fields with tiny but cumulative skin and cloth contact by collectors over the years. Back to the Brasher, of course it's been shined up a few times by proud owners, I do not have a big problem with it in a 63 holder, this kind of coin is at the kind of pinnacle that they're more ranked than graded anymore. I have no idea if it will break $10 million, and if it does, what sort of underbid situation will support the price.

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 10:08AM

And the new grading guidelines can't be posted because of newb purists like me...

keyman64 · January 8, 2014 10:19AM

<< 

<< 

<< 

<< people still get hung up on "Mint State" and "Uncirculated" associated with grades 60 and up.

As TDN and others have noted, this kind of thinking is obsolete. What the 1-70 and + and designations such as strike quality, cameo quality, and copper color are doing is appraising the coin, and assigning a number that corresponds to the value, rather than grading it technically, and therefore out is the idea that a little high point rub absolutely positively precludes a grade above 58, and also obsolete is the idea that any hint of hairlines means "cleaned/bodybag", as it is not, nor has it ever been reasonable, that a beat up, bagmarked and luster-impaired but strictly no-rub MS60 is worth more than a beautiful, evenly toned, mark-free, well-struck coin with a hint of friction. >>

You said it better than I could. I agree! >>

I agree except for when it comes to coins of the late 19th century and then 20th century. I have not seen any Mercury Dimes, late date Barber coinage, Washington Quarters etc...in say a MS67 holder that has a little rub on the high points. Maybe someone else has? It all comes down to the individual series?

>>

I cracked two rattler AU58 WLHs and they came back 64 and 65 respectively. >>

Wow, well done. Just not something I have seen. I have seen plenty of high point rub on early 19th century material that resides in Mint State holders though. I still think there is a difference somewhere and to me, within 20th century series that I am most familiar with, it does not happen like it does on early 19th century material...but I guess I will not go so far as to say that it NEVER happens.

Broadstruck · January 8, 2014 10:24AM

Way too much emphasis being placed on the actual grade of this gold token...

As it's just a early merchant advertising store card for a jeweler and goldsmith Miller-NY-82B

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 10:36AM

<< Way too much emphasis being placed on the actual grade of this gold token...

As it's just a early merchant advertising store card for a jeweler and goldsmith Miller-NY-82B

>>

Another can of worms opened.

"MS" means something

I'd rather pricing expectations and grade guarantee payment expectations change than standards. OK, so there are AU58 pricing ranges that are wider now due to looker coins that aren't nearly as beat as the MS60 ones. There are AU coins worth more than many MS grades because of their overall condition. I'd prefer that to net grading them up into a condition "mint state" they are not in.

EagleEye · January 8, 2014 10:47AM

I voted for an over $10,000,000 final price. I grade it AU-58PL and you know, what? I does not matter what it is graded. I think the Garrett coin is a better coin too.

I was in the room for the Garrett sale and vividly recall Art Kagin standing on the side of the room animated in every higher bid he made. Only to lose to a guy in the middle of the room, sitting near me, silently holding his bidder card until Art folded. Witnessing it was a thrill.

roadrunner · January 8, 2014 10:48AM

Fully mint state early US coins basically don't exist. 90% of what is graded as MS is just not. Mint state should mean the state it left the mint (ie full luster and no wear). The whole grading scale we currently use should
be Unc 60- Unc 70. We can define Unc to be mean anything we want....and we have. That would be a better choice than MS. How about MA60 to MA70 (ie market unc or market acceptable unc?).

Broadstruck · January 8, 2014 10:49AM

<< 

<< Way too much emphasis being placed on the actual grade of this gold token...

As it's just a early merchant advertising store card for a jeweler and goldsmith Miller-NY-82B

>>

Another can of worms opened.

"MS" means something

I'd rather pricing expectations and grade guarantee payment expectations change than standards. OK, so there are AU58 pricing ranges that are wider now due to looker coins that aren't nearly as beat as the MS60 ones. There are AU coins worth more than many MS grades because of their overall condition. I'd prefer that to net grading them up into a condition "mint state" they are not in. >>

A lil rub is not a bad thing... Look at PCGS Price Guide Values of a 1897-S 50C AU58 $14,950, MS62 $3,850, MS63 $4,300, MS64 $5,900, MS65 $8,750, MS66 $14,500

Baley · January 8, 2014 10:53AM

<< Fully mint state early US coins basically don't exist. 90% of what is graded as MS is just not. Mint state should mean the state it left the mint (ie full luster and no wear). The whole grading scale we currently use should
be Unc 60- Unc 70. We can define Unc to be mean anything we want....and we have. That would be a better choice than MS. How about MA60 to MA70 (ie market unc or market acceptable unc?). >>

The obvious answer is to just leave off the adjectives, and simply give each coin a number from 0.0 to 70.0

CaptHenway · January 8, 2014 10:57AM

<< And the new grading guidelines can't be posted because of newb purists like me... >>

Double Secret Grading Standards?

sparky64 · January 8, 2014 11:08AM

That 1913 5C picked the wrong coin to go up against.
Not that they are in direct competition.

I love the Brasher Doubloons. I start to daydream when looking at it.

I'd rather have the stamp where this one is rather than obliterating the center of the shield.

I voted for the under but you never know.

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 11:15AM

<< 

<< 

<< Way too much emphasis being placed on the actual grade of this gold token...

As it's just a early merchant advertising store card for a jeweler and goldsmith Miller-NY-82B

>>

Another can of worms opened.

"MS" means something

I'd rather pricing expectations and grade guarantee payment expectations change than standards. OK, so there are AU58 pricing ranges that are wider now due to looker coins that aren't nearly as beat as the MS60 ones. There are AU coins worth more than many MS grades because of their overall condition. I'd prefer that to net grading them up into a condition "mint state" they are not in. >>

A lil rub is not a bad thing... Look at PCGS Price Guide Values of a 1897-S 50C AU58 $14,950, MS62 $3,850, MS63 $4,300, MS64 $5,900, MS65 $8,750, MS66 $14,500

>>

Definitely not a bad thing as a cracked MS60 carried for a few weeks as a pocket piece will be worth 4x more afterwards, or should it be worth even less, thus expanding the pricing range of the circulated grade?

MsMorrisine · January 8, 2014 1:03PM

In addition to claiming a trademark and patent application submission pending for any and all forms of "cloth quality" grading designations e.g. PCQ: premium cloth quality

I now stake all claims to .0 through .9+ circulated coin grading used to differentiate the state of a circulated coin as it would grade without the wear whereas .0 would relate to an 60 grade up to and including an .9+ for high end coins which would otherwise grade 70 without the wear. The .0 through .9+ designations would also be used to separate sales prices.

Example: an au58.7 would be a lightly worn 67 coin and the sales price for such coin would be designated apart from au58.0-au58.6 and au58.8-au58.9+

You can thank me with payments starting immediately.

giorgio11 · January 8, 2014 10:42PM

The live auction is gonna be tonight starting at 6 pm ET, should really be fun to watch!

SethChandler · January 9, 2014 7:27AM

Yes, that is a great coin and one of my favorites. Im gonna guess 7mm hammer.

One other thing. The auction description is probably the best I have ever seen! My hat is off to Heritage!

zas107 · January 9, 2014 8:12AM

I think that just went cheap IMO.

tradedollarnut · January 9, 2014 8:16AM

Just under $4.6M all in.

FullStrike · January 9, 2014 8:32AM

Personally Id go no higher than $7 Mill .

If I had $7 Mill to spend on something like that. And I'd need $100 Mill
before even thinking of putting 7 of it on a Coin.

MsMorrisine · January 9, 2014 8:40AM

<< Personally Id go no higher than $7 Mill . >>

Sold!

CaptHenway · January 9, 2014 8:45AM

<< Just under $4.6M all in. >>

So, do they readjust the slab grade up or down after the price is determined, since the actual condition of the coin is irrelevant to the grading?

Poll: Will the 1787 DBLN Brasher Doubloon top $10M

Comments

Leave a Comment