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Two Vickies - What is this line on the 1858 5c? * new evidence Sep 15 *

The 1895 large cent I bought just the other day. GTG if you'd like image

The 1858 5 cent I have had in al album for years. I was browsing through my extensive collection trying to find 100 coins to submit to ICCS for their bulk discount. I had already passed over this one a few times, assuming that the long mark was a staple scratch (as I assumed when I bought it as part of a collection). Then I took a closer look and was very pleasantly surprised that it's actually a die break! The somewhat parallel mark between the 5 and the S, is unfortunately a mark or some sort. But I don't think it's bad enough to warrant a "scratch" note on a holder. The toning is quite nice once it is lit up. Without good light it seems rather dark and insignificant.

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Comments

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    beautiful 1895

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  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭
    Very nice, I really like the portraits used on the Canadian coins.
  • sylsyl Posts: 888 ✭✭✭
    So the line that runs from the '5' up through the 'C' in Cent and then to the denticles is in relief (raised)? It looks to me that it is incuse (inset) into the field.... if it is raised, then it's a very strange D/C. D/C's normally start at high stress points in the die (serifs on the lettering, leaf tips, denticle tips, etc .. like on the leafs at 10:: & 2:00 ). If it's recessed (incuse), then it's not PMD (a scratch or something), but rather a scratched/damaged planchet, because the mark on the coin doesn't go through any of the design (incuse in the die is in relief on the coin).

    You should also try to look at the first 8 closely through binocs or a good loupe .. it well could be a very scarce variety (1858/1558). The date has definitely been repunched, but I don't see the normal Obverse marker ... however there DOES appear to be the tell-tale tip sticking out, top left, of the first 8 but not quite in the correct spot on my computer screen. Also, there appears to be a clash after DEI on the Obverse, but there is nothing on the Reverse that would look like that after the reverse die clashed with the Obverse with no planchet between. I'd post this coin on a couple Canadian sites (the Canadiancoppercoin site (covers all denominations) or the Canadian forum on CCF to see if someone has something like yours. If it's a variety or error, I would certify it through CCCS, not ICCS..... Brian doesn't certify them until they have appeared in formal publication or a price guide.

    I'm into Vicky cent varieties, not silver, but do know a lot about varieties and their causes/resulting indications.
  • LochNESSLochNESS Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Very nice, I really like the portraits used on the Canadian coins. >>


    I feel like most if not all of the modern British Commonwealth issues use the same portrait. Anybody know why and/or when this started? It'd make my OFEC set a lot more interesting [visually] if so many of the obverses didn't look so similar.
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    image
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    The line appears to be incuse, but it definitely isn't a post-mint damage scratch- it runs under the letters. There is also an raised area part of the way along this line (just above the date touching the 5 and ending above the 8). Struck through a piece of wire or something perhaps?

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  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    something went crazy here zip zap and 2 times posted with nothing

    I was going to ask this:
    could it be that the original planchet was already damaged before it was struck?
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I vote scratched!
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭


    << <i>could it be that the original planchet was already damaged before it was struck? >>



    A planchet flaw is the best explanation I've heard so far. I just don't see any possible way it was this deeply gouge after being struck, while ending and resuming so perfectly at the multiple raised design/letters. It definitely runs "underneath", suggesting it was there before being struck.
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  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,194 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure did look like a staple scratch to me, too, except where it seemingly runs underneath the C in CENTS.

    Man, that 1895 cent is a blazin' beauty! 65 RD, maybe?

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  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pokerman, this is not intended to butt in to your subject.
    However, there are a few similarities I think to my coin.
    except, mine looks like a DB in the planchet but, I believe , is struck on top of the DB.
    yours is more even, while mine has the appearance of a normal DB...
    it is actually evident 2 times.
    through the 5 to the crown and through the 8 up.

    on both coins, speculation as to how and what can go all over...
    [URL=http://s627.photobucket.com/user/cdncoins/media/1858 5cent LD/18585Crev_zpse62b27a5.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    [URL=http://s627.photobucket.com/user/cdncoins/media/1858 5cent LD/1858dbr_zpsd9efaa40.jpg.html]image[/URL]
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    Pretty cool DB on yours there too, YQQ. I don't know enough about them to really know how they form though.

    I posted my pics on another forum and there seems to be a loose consensus that it's simply a scratch which was then worn off of the high points through circulation. This is possible, but I am still leaning towards a planchet defect. I think that there would still be some trace of a mark that deep, and/or an interruption in the line on the far side of the scratch direction (eg, after it speed bumps over the design), rather than it resuming right at the other side of the design. Also, there isn't all that much actual wear on this coin, VF-30ish detail, but I think it's EF-40 with a weak strike based on the lustre it has.
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  • sylsyl Posts: 888 ✭✭✭
    I am not allowed on CCF, but I put a link on a private site to which I belong. It's a mixed bag there as well as to a staple scratch or a scratch/defect on the planchet BEFORE it was struck. The people that say it's just a PMD scratch aren't looking at every design element to see that it ends abruptly where it goes under the relief .. or that the scratch does not go into the relief at the 5 or where it crosses the leaf stem. There are a few knowledgeable people on CCF, but many who just regurgitate what someone who has lots of posts has to say.
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pokerman, there is no way that these are scratches in ur coin.
    If these were, why are these scratches then not in the digits?
    I can not see any wear marks on them...
    I also believe that the DC in my coin was already in the planchet. again there are no marks on any digits also.

    Bill, u are so right. we are in the same boat
    where did you post this other stuff?
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  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    One last round of pics. I don't think I'll be able to get an image better than the first couple in this post. The first one shows the portion along the scratch near the date which is actually raised. The 5 has an odd little bit on it as well.

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  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sure did look like a staple scratch to me, too, except where it seemingly runs underneath the C in CENTS.

    Man, that 1895 cent is a blazin' beauty! 65 RD, maybe? >>



    Missed this post earlier. Yes, it is indeed a 65 red. About 95% red, IMO.
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  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pokerman, what SW are you using?
    there are ways of bring out more details.
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    5c...scratched.

    1c....beautiful!!
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

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  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While it may seem clear to some, letting this play out longer to get more comments is reasonable and appropriate. I tend to see this as PM damage, but I would like to be proven wrong.

    I still like the cent- no change in my opinion with that one

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  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    I'm going to resurrect this thread because I came across this today. I've owned this PCGS AU53 1858 20 cents for years, recently pulled it from my safe box to re-image. Lo and behold, it has an extremely similar style die break on it. The same kind of raised die break with a lighter/somewhat scratch-looking line running parallel to the die break. Just like on the 1858 5c I posted on the line running from the 5 up towards the C in Cents.

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  • FYI

    I believe the rare 1858/1558 mentioned concerns the 10 CENT Vicky, not the fish-scale.

    doug
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    repeat post but the 5c is still a scratch.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • YQQYQQ Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eagle,
    could you please indicate WHY you think it is a scratch? If it is a PMD scratch, someone would have wanted to make this scratch and that very precise.
    On the image it most certainly looks like it was on the planchet before it was struck.

    if this is the case, and assume it is a scratch, would it then be considered PMD or not?
    probably not...
    so, HOW would a TPG explain/ mark this? it was obviously ok with the Mint Master to release the coin into the publics hands.
    PM dude, you might want to make a special note for Brian when you send it.
    Today is the first day of the rest of my life
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    I was convinced that the line n the 5c was a scratch, until I found a very similar line on the 1858 20c I own.

    The line on the 20c most definitely isn't a scratch, so there is still hope for the 5 cent. Although the possible remnants of a scratch on the leaf and the rim probably mean it is indeed just a scratch. Still, an odd shape and that part that is definitely raised seems odd. Especially that I have two with such a similar look.

    When I eventually submit to ICCS, I'll definitely make a note of the "large die break" and see what he says. I'm still about 20 coins short of my 100 coin bulk price. Maybe only 5-10 if I decided to cross grade some PCGS/NGC coins. So it shouldn't be long now!
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  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>When I eventually submit to ICCS, I'll definitely make a note of the "large die break" and see what he says. I'm still about 20 coins short of my 100 coin bulk price. Maybe only 5-10 if I decided to cross grade some PCGS/NGC coins. So it shouldn't be long now! >>



    Pokermandude.......call Brian at ICCS and ask if he'll give you the 100 coin rate even if you only have about 90 to submit.

    In most cases, he'll do this for you. It's worth a try.
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

    "“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)

    "I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    I may do that. On the other side, having this "goal" of finding 10-20 more certification worthy raw coins does help motivate me image
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