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High tech, hand held grading devices

ChessmanChessman Posts: 1,602 ✭✭✭
I was speaking with a sharp customer service representative at a major grading service recently as to whether they use electronic scanning or other devices to grade certain coins, for example the endless numbers of modern coins which must be difficult to get accurately graded in such numbers. She said "no".

How far are we from the availability of high tech, hand held grading devices where a dealer or collector could hover over the surface of the coin and it would relay any problems on the surface of said coin, with approximate grade level, etc.? The next wave would then to be able to uplink with a computer database, auction records, etc. with images online and then quickly compare with those with percentages of correlation to images and then crank out a likely numerical grade.

How far are we from such a high tech tool?

Comments

  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    "How far are we from such a high tech tool?"

    Good Lord, I sincerely hope that we are so far away from obtaining such a device that the entire idea is abandoned. If anyone either can't or won't learn to grade themselves, maybe they should consider taking up another hobby. One that doesn't require any effort on their part.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"How far are we from such a high tech tool?"

    Good Lord, I sincerely hope that we are so far away from obtaining such a device that the entire idea is abandoned. If anyone either can't or won't learn to grade themselves, maybe they should consider taking up another hobby. One that doesn't require any effort on their part. >>



    Do you use a cell phone? The Internet? Or anything that is "high tech". I think it would be an excellent idea and eventually a standard among all grading companies where folks want coins graded. How cool would it be to be able to scan your own coins from home to see how your organic grading methods stack up? Would we even need grading companies? Why do we need them now? Is the human eye somehow better than what could eventually be developed? Consistency in grading is our ultimate goal isn't it?

    You are a bit closed minded based on your own personal opinion. Loosen up a little.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    People who suggest such things seem unusually fixated on quantifiable, objective measures of grade. Bagmarks, hits, and strike are reasonably easy to quantify. Luster might be, but try teaching a machine to differentiate between prooflike surfaces from new or polished dies and the outstanding luster from late die state strikings. Teach the machine which coins come poorly struck and how to distinguish that from slight wear. Teach the machine to distinguish die breaks from surface damage. There are subtle nuances that an experienced grader must consider in the context of the entire coin.

    All of that aside, don't forget the single most important quality of a coin is its eye appeal. That is purely subjective and can only be reasonably determined by experts with an eye calibrated by viewing tens of thousands of coins. I also foresee difficulty in making the distinction between "genuine, cleaned" and "grade-appropriate hairlines", let alone between counterfeit and genuine. There are too many subtleties and nuances.

    Now, if you want to build something that could determine if a mint-state, white ASE was MS69 or MS70, such a distinction is a much simpler matter, but still complex and frought with pitfalls.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't see it happening. You can no more grade the subjective traits of a coin than you can a painting.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some day an electronic device assisted in some fashion. But I think a coin's grade will always be a human judgment.
    Lance.
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    PCGS experimented with computerized grading close to 25 years ago. My recollection is that it was used on Morgan $1 and proved to be no more accurate than the grading crew. The program had the ability to learn from what it saw, and to be tweaked by graders. While I expect that in virtually all cases of pre-Modern coins it could not be successfully taught, the PR68-69-70 "lines" of discrimination., as well as CAM-DCAM "lines", might be more easily programmed for coins with a much higher expectation of success. Edited to add: Call it AI with very specific boundaries and limits.

    Note the speculative nature of my tentative conclusions.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭
    the "sniffer" at least automates looking for foreign substances and takes a crude "picture". This is done for all coins over $50K, anything graded Secure, and any coins PCGS deems fishy. The "picture" is used for future reference to see if the coin has changed.

    I think the system from 25 years ago was called " Photo Grade"
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And if it was used where would re-grades and crossover go?????

    BTW as mentioned above it was tried and failed because of a little thing called "Eye Appeal".
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>the "sniffer" at least automates looking for foreign substances and takes a crude "picture". This is done for all coins over $50K, anything graded Secure, and any coins PCGS deems fishy. The "picture" is used for future reference to see if the coin has changed.

    I think the system from 25 years ago was called " Photo Grade" >>



    Back then Photo Grade was a book and the quality of the images left a whole lot to be desired.
  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For detecting wear, spots, carbon, nicks and scratches, then sure. For discriminating between NT and AT, maybe. For discriminating between pretty toning and ugly toning, never.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Now, if you want to build something that could determine if a mint-state, white ASE was MS69 or MS70 >>


    This (as well as PR69-70 differentiation) is probably one of the only viable applications for this, as you are merely inspecting the finished product for flaws and categorizing them. Grading bulk orders of these coins has to be extremely repetitive and mind-numbing, thus prone to error. Being able to automate this process would be less error-prone, more objective, repeatable, and avoid the issue of being accused of grading certain orders with different standards as long as the grading parameters are constant. As soon as grading strays from "parts inspection", an automated approach isn't feasible.
  • robkoolrobkool Posts: 5,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    KOOL IDEA !!! I like it... image Hopefully this device will force everyone to be honest about their coins, and separate the truth sayers from the non-sayers. image
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Now, if you want to build something that could determine if a mint-state, white ASE was MS69 or MS70 >>


    This (as well as PR69-70 differentiation) is probably one of the only viable applications for this, as you are merely inspecting the finished product for flaws and categorizing them. Grading bulk orders of these coins has to be extremely repetitive and mind-numbing, thus prone to error. Being able to automate this process would be less error-prone, more objective, repeatable, and avoid the issue of being accused of grading certain orders with different standards as long as the grading parameters are constant. As soon as grading strays from "parts inspection", an automated approach isn't feasible. >>



    Oh, you translated what I said into Englishimage

    This specific application I suggest has nothing to do with the SecurePlus technology or the Sniffer. "Parts inspection" is precisely the intent of "my" application.

    PhotoGrade was not used, rather, I'd imagine, coins from the reference PCGS grading set with, as said before, some subsequent tweaking. The process may have been an early application of CompuGrade or some very closely related technology. I'd imagine some hand-verification would be needed for toned ASE etc to determine NT/AT
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • shylockshylock Posts: 4,288 ✭✭✭
    Eye appeal is, thank god, totally human. As is ability to compare every coin you've ever seen in relation to eye appeal.

    When Sothebys starts rating works of art with anything other than the human eye and brain, Michelangelo will start
    sketching charactertures of God in Heaven.
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>... But there would be some dealers who would not want their coins scanned at the show or shop for whatever reasons and they have that right. >>



    Why is it a right?

    "Here's our service. We think it's the best way to do the job. Best for everyone! Buy it or don't".

    The "parts inspection" paradigm rules where applicable. .
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell

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