Legal challenge to coin ownership

AKFlyer

Hi,

I am trustee to a legal trust that has, as its primary asset, gold coins. The beneficiary of the trust is someone incapable of understandiing about the coins or the trust.

Someone took the beneficiary to the bank and managed to get into MY safe deposit box and stole some gold coins from it that belong to the trust. All of the coins were PCGS and NGC certified, and I have the serial numbers. The person who got these coins does not deny getting them, and claims to own them legitimately.

My questions for this forum:

Is there a way to track a "chain of ownership" for the coins? I am currently unable to verify when / where they were bought.
Whom to call? At PCGS, is there a particular customer support number for such questions?

Note1: I have made a police report and am not optimistic. This will likely be dismissed by police as a "family squabble", at best a civil matter.
Note2: I have an attorney already, and am trying to avoid (Like the plague) a lawsuit. Said lawsuit would cost almost as much as the value of the coins in question.
Note3: I'm a long-time collector and used to participate here on this board quite a bit --under my old name.

AUandAG

How does someone get access to YOUR safe deposit box? Did you give them the key and have them sign
the access card? I don't get it. What does the bank say? I think they would be liable if they allowed
someone without your authorization access to YOUR box. Right?

Not a lawyer.

bob

AKFlyer

The beneficiary had a key and is on the signature card to the safe-box.

Never mind how they did it, I really need to try and trace ownership prior to the trust obtaining the coins. (I have not been trustee but for about a year.)

My questions for this forum:

Is there a way to track a "chain of ownership" for the coins? I am currently unable to verify when / where they were bought.

Whom to call? At PCGS, is there a particular customer support number for such questions?

Bochiman

Coins can be bought and sold just like most everything else. It is wishful thinking that every trade can be tracked. It can't. Unless you have invoices, and even then that only shows part of the story...who is to say it wasn't sold without an invoice, then it is just a possession thing.

Sounds like there are quite the family issues and, I would NOT have someone else on what I would call "MY" safe deposit box, unless it is a spouse. To do so is to invite what you have layed out.

If the other person is claiming them, and they don't want let go, then I see about 3 choices:

1) Let it go and they just screwed you and the other person (I would also make sure that nothing else got into their hands)
2) Tell them that you will let them have some, but want the rest back, or else face an attorney and fees.
3) Use the attorney, let it cost what the fees cost, try to get the fees back as part of the settlement, and make sure they don't get any reward for being dishonest.


I would likely do the 3rd choice just because I am a black/white type of person when it comes to honesty and trust.

AUandAG

Okay they had access.....can't go that route.

I do not believe that there is a way to track the ownership of a coin without purchasing paperwork.

PCGS would likely know, but probably not divulge without a court order, who submitted the coin(s) for
grading. However, what would that get you? They could have been sold as soon as they were graded
or shortly thereafter.

The chain of ownership is likely lost without paperwork, auction results or such.

good luck,

bob

Afterthought: If you are the trustee, is there not a judge that was involved in naming you an official trustee of the
estate? Go there and see what the court can do for you.

BAJJERFAN

So who has the missing coins? The person who accompanied the beneficiary to your SDB? IF so how does he claim legitimate ownership to the coins? Or were the removed/stolen coins sold to someone else and that person claims to own them fair and square?

leothelyon

You didn't see this was possible? How did you become a trustee?

Billet7

Sounds like YOU are part of the family in question, or at least a close friend...am I wrong? Otherwise why would this person have access to your safe deposit box?

Another question, why would gold coins that belong in a trust reside in YOUR safe deposit box?

Justacommeman

Get a lawyer or let it go. MJ

MrEureka

I am currently unable to verify when / where they were bought.

I'm not sure what that means. Do you know where you got the coins?

MsMorrisine

<< <i>Get a lawyer or let it go. MJ >>



as a trustee, I do not think it can be let go.

fiduciary responsibility

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I am currently unable to verify when / where they were bought.

I'm not sure what that means. Do you know where you got the coins? >>



It means that whoever purchased the coins that went into the trust didn't keep records of the purchase/s. It's likely the purchaser is deceased.

MrEureka

t means that whoever purchased the coins that went into the trust didn't keep records of the purchase/s.


If it's that simple, the seller may be able to help document the transactions.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>t means that whoever purchased the coins that went into the trust didn't keep records of the purchase/s.


If it's that simple, the seller may be able to help document the transactions. >>



Except that if he doesn't know when or from where they were bought, then he likely doesn't from whom they were bought either.

magikbilly

.

BAJJERFAN

If the assets of the trust were certified/verified as to identity and value, I'm not sure what need there is for knowing who the prior owner was.

TomB

You can track auction sales through PCGS cert verification. Aside from that, I know of no public, comprehensive database that can tell you when or where a coin traded hands.

Justacommeman

<< <i>

<< <i>Get a lawyer or let it go. MJ >>



as a trustee, I do not think it can be let go.

fiduciary responsibility >>



He needs to let go of the chain of ownership angle if he he has no records and that seems the case. Sure, he will have to make it right so lawyer up or buck up. MJ

Amigo

How does someone get access to YOUR safe deposit box? Did you give them the key and have them sign

Here's my experience, which might be vastly different than others. It's a bit OT to the thread, but it's my night to vent.

I have over a dzn sdb's , in different banks and branches so as to not keep too many eggs in one basket. Some of those boxes I don't visit for years inbetween. Henceforth, the bank employees do not recognize me at most branches. It is very common for them to simply ask me to sign the reciept, without identification requested. Anyone that has seen my signature could easily duplicate it within a few minitues sufficent for these employees to not be able to distinguish a counterfiet. These are just low wage workers that apparently have no real security standards to follow.

One branch with a box, when I first set it up, I requested they request (2) forms of ID from me upon entry. I figure perps can easily get a fake ID with their pic and my name. They recorded my request, but no one at that branch has asked for my ID yet upon entry yet.

It's very worrisome to me how lax they are. Sometimes, every year or so, at a branch or two ..... I voice my displeasure with the whole routine. Nothing ever changes though. My thoughts are, since they are so damn lax, that the bank must not be liable in reality.

IMHO, if you don't keep your sdb keys locked up so that no one can get to them, you are potentially going to be a victim.

Anyone else experience the same lack of security.

howards

Not legal advice, but here's how I see it: The person who benefits from the trust is the beneficiary. The beneficiary (according to your story) enabled the removal of some trust assets. The person he (potentially) hurt is himself, and depending how this trust is set up it's possible the beneficiary had no right to mess with assets held in trust for him.

I would send the beneficiary a certified letter stating your position as the trustee that the beneficiary improperly removed trust assets, and that you cannot be responsible for any negative outcome the beneficiary experiences as a result. Whether it's a good idea to hire a lawyer to draft such a letter is a reasonable question.

You are not personally damaged by the beneficiary's actions, so other than documenting why the beneficiary prevented you from improperly administering trust assets I don't see much more for you to do. The only thing I see that should concern you is whether your fiduciary duty to the trust would ever be called into question.

Bochiman

<< <i>
Note3: I'm a long-time collector and used to participate here on this board quite a bit --under my old name. >>



Others things aside....I wonder about this one as well........What was the old name?

Jcarney

How in the world does a trustee give the "incapable" beneficiary access to a safety deposit box containing the items in the trust?

PCGS and NGC MAY have records of who had the coins certified but this wouldn't necessarily prove ownership.

amwldcoin

Sounds to me like the biggest issue may be a tax issue. Trusts are set up as tax shelters or to allow inheritances to be distributed when the beneficiary is mature enough to manage the inheritance. Either way there are tax ramifications unless someone is claiming the coins taken were stolen.

Was the beneficiary a young whippersnapper who wanted money before the trust was set up to disperse???

s4ny

<< <i>Not legal advice, but here's how I see it: The person who benefits from the trust is the beneficiary. The beneficiary (according to your story) enabled the removal of some trust assets. The person he (potentially) hurt is himself, and depending how this trust is set up it's possible the beneficiary had no right to mess with assets held in trust for him.

I would send the beneficiary a certified letter stating your position as the trustee that the beneficiary improperly removed trust assets, and that you cannot be responsible for any negative outcome the beneficiary experiences as a result. Whether it's a good idea to hire a lawyer to draft such a letter is a reasonable question.

You are not personally damaged by the beneficiary's actions, so other than documenting why the beneficiary prevented you from improperly administering trust assets I don't see much more for you to do. The only thing I see that should concern you is whether your fiduciary duty to the trust would ever be called into question. >>



The above seems to be solid advice. Also:

Who created the trust and placed the assets in the trust? Was it created in a will or is the grantor alive?
Why a trust at all? is the beneficiary a minor or mentally challenged?
Why did the beneficiary had legal access to the box with a signature on file? (this seems to be your personal vulnerability)
Who accompanied the beneficiary to the bank? What role does that person play.
There should be provisions in the trust document to allow you to resign.

Remember, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

coinhunters

<< <i>Sounds to me like the biggest issue may be a tax issue. Trusts are set up as tax shelters or to allow inheritances to be distributed when the beneficiary is mature enough to manage the inheritance. Either way there are tax ramifications unless someone is claiming the coins taken were stolen.

Was the beneficiary a young whippersnapper who wanted money before the trust was set up to disperse??? >>

Bingo! Formerly notify the IRS

s4ny

This probably is not a taxable event. Distribution of assets from a trust
to a beneficiary is usually not taxable. I would NEVER
notify the IRS.

Some states have estate or inheritance taxes at the state level. (New Jersey is the only
state with both.) In any case, the tax kicks in at a high level, usually $1 million or more.
In the original post it seems that it was implied that this was not a large trust in terms of assets.

This is a civil matter.

ricko

Other than to advise the retention of counsel, there is not enough information here to assist the OP in any other way. Cheers, RickO

RGJohn

<< <i>The beneficiary had a key and is on the signature card to the safe-box.

Never mind how they did it, I really need to try and trace ownership prior to the trust obtaining the coins. (I have not been trustee but for about a year.)

My questions for this forum:

Is there a way to track a "chain of ownership" for the coins? I am currently unable to verify when / where they were bought.

Whom to call? At PCGS, is there a particular customer support number for such questions? >>



-----
When one gives a SDB key and access privleges to another party, that party has the right to access the box and its contents. Alpha.....Omega.
That does not create any such situation as : "Someone took the beneficiary to the bank and managed to get into MY safe deposit box and stole some gold coins from it....".
They didn't 'manage' to get into your box. You INVITED and AUTHORIZED them to do so. You can't give the car keys, registration and insurance card to somebody and then claim that they stole your car, pard.
----------
This entire scenario reeks of cow flop.

silverpop

talk to a lawyer about this

TPRC

<< <i>talk to a lawyer about this >>






First, hire a competent lawyer. Believe it or not, the best way to avoid litigation at this point, is to hire someone who can guide you through the legal process.
Second, understand that what is posted on these threads is discoverable, and may be used by the other side if litigation is commenced.
Third, probably best to keep this off the boards. Even acknowledging that some of the information learned here may be helpful, it is probably best to seek out this information in a less public forum.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>
Note3: I'm a long-time collector and used to participate here on this board quite a bit --under my old name. >>



Others things aside....I wonder about this one as well........What was the old name? >>



Look at the member listing at the bottom of the page and see if there is a longtimecolletor listed!

Bochiman

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>
Note3: I'm a long-time collector and used to participate here on this board quite a bit --under my old name. >>



Others things aside....I wonder about this one as well........What was the old name? >>



Look at the member listing at the bottom of the page and see if there is a longtimecolletor listed! >>



Longtimecollector, if I recall, as a forum name, was Jim. He opened his own coin store and virtually stopped coming around. That said, I would be reasonably certain that this person is NOT LTC but rather, that the term "long-time collector" was just words used to describe himself, not to name himself.

Since this posting idea has a creation date of Aug 2011, and the person notes they used to be on the board quite a bit, under the old name, I am going with alt....and likely one not allowed to post anymore.
Doesn't really matter to me other than curiousity....else, one would generally post who they were (similar to Tirekicker coming back and having to create a new ID because he forgot his old one...yes, took a few days, but he came right out and said WHY he couldn't post as his old self anymore).

coinpictures

Tracking ownership of coins is a difficult proposition unless the coins are very high profile.

One thing I'm still not sure of is whether the SDB in question contained ONLY property of the trust, or ALSO property of the OP (he refers to it as "my" safety deposit box).

If I were put in such a position as trusstee, I would *NEVER* be comingling personal and trust assets. I would be opening a separate SDB in the trust's name.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but it's unclear from the OP. If he did put trust assets in his personal SDB, in my opinion that is a VERY dangerous thing to do, not only from the perspective of someone else stealing your property, but from a legal liability standpoint.

epcjimi1

I read the whole thread and decided the first post is a Paul Harvey and Now the Rest of the Story broadcast. Lots of iceberg under the water's surface here.

topstuf

Why get a lawyer? A good lawyer's first question would be why your stuff was mingled with the trust's assets.
He'd charge for that question because there's no defensible answer.

Beating the snot out of a beneficiary would probably be a good reason to need a lawyer.

Or a doctor.

s4ny

I agree with the "tip of the iceberg" theory.

The original poster made a mistake when he allowed the mysterious beneficiary
to have access to the box.

If the beneficiary is a minor or incompetent, the trustee may be
negligent for allowing access.

We have only seen the tip of the iceberg and that is likely all we are going to get.

MsMorrisine

I am surprised the trust did not have a good description of what was held in trust, and that could establish ownership.

MsMorrisine

This is still theft.


if you give someone keys to your truck, and that person later takes the truck to a chop shop and sells it for parts.... that is still theft.


I'd pursue criminal charges first.

AKFlyer

Thanks to everyone who posted to this thread in an attempt to answer the questions.

For those who are curious about how $50,000 in gold can be lifted from a Safe-deposit box, here are some more details to answer some of the questions and insults posed back at me:

My old ID on this board is one where I would be personally identifiable. I am NOT doing anything in a secretive manner and all of my actions are able to stand any scrutiny.

The current beneficiary to this trust is the SAME person who originated the trust, AND bought the coins.

I was originally the beneficiary and he was the grantor/trustee.

The roles reversed when the originator of the trust could no longer manage his affairs.

(This is typical of a "living trust." If the originator dies, I receive trust assets without any probate. If originator is incapacitated, the trust assets are to be used for his care and well-being, myself as trustee.) Now, I am OBLIGATED to try and recover trust assets.

I suspect that the reason the coins were not added to the trust was because the originator forgot -or- considered them to be proceeds of a real estate transaction which would automatically make them part of the trust.

The originator (now beneficiary) originally was keeping a fortune in gold coins under his mattress.

I took steps to safeguard what might become my inheritance by getting a safe deposit box and fussing at the originator until he very, very reluctantly agreed to store the coins there. He was still "capable" at this point but the signs were there that his memory was lacking.

The contents of the SD box were trust assets and trust assets only.

The originator (at the time, "capable in every way") was given a key and is on the signature card for the box. The key "went missing" 1.5 years ago. I figured he lost the key. Turns out, the key was purloined. I do not live under the same roof and could not oversee any activities of the family.

He has now become practically helpless and does not remember anything about coins, trusts safe-boxs.

Until this summer, I did not know any details or provisions in the trust. (I was a replacement trustee for a year without even knowing it.) Other family members destroyed all of the copies of the trust they could find. I got a copy quite by accident this past summer.

A few months ago, because of other thefts, and because the key was missing, I moved most of the gold to another safe-box. (I no longer remember my reason for leaving a few coins in the first SD box.)

For those who recommend that I get a lawyer: As I mentioned in the first post, I did that first. I have already spent thousands of dollars in legal fees.

For those who commented that "something smells": Your apology will be cheerfully accepted. Same for those who accuse me of tax fraud.

For those who gave me suggestions on finding a trace of ownership: Thank you. I will contact PCGS and see if they can help in any way.Text

Jcarney

Sounds messy. I wish you the best.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>
Note3: I'm a long-time collector and used to participate here on this board quite a bit --under my old name. >>



Others things aside....I wonder about this one as well........What was the old name? >>



Look at the member listing at the bottom of the page and see if there is a longtimecolletor listed! >>



Longtimecollector, if I recall, as a forum name, was Jim. He opened his own coin store and virtually stopped coming around. That said, I would be reasonably certain that this person is NOT LTC but rather, that the term "long-time collector" was just words used to describe himself, not to name himself.

Since this posting idea has a creation date of Aug 2011, and the person notes they used to be on the board quite a bit, under the old name, I am going with alt....and likely one not allowed to post anymore.
Doesn't really matter to me other than curiousity....else, one would generally post who they were (similar to Tirekicker coming back and having to create a new ID because he forgot his old one...yes, took a few days, but he came right out and said WHY he couldn't post as his old self anymore). >>



The handle AKFlyer suggests someone who resides in Alaska and has an interest in flying eagle cents. longtimecollector has an interest in FECs. I do not recall where Jim is/was from.

AKFlyer

I left out the messy parts.

AKFlyer

Hey BAJJERFAN,

I have worked as a bush pilot in Alaska (easy)... Just curious: How the heck does it show my favorite coin is FE cent? That is the case. How'd you know?

Thanks.

shorecoll

Unless it's a trivial amount of money, I would notify the IRS, just so they didn't someday come after me. Some of you say they can't...but they have a long history of doing things they can't and forcing you to spend large sums proving they weren't allowed to in the first place.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>Hey BAJJERFAN,

I have worked as a bush pilot in Alaska (easy)... Just curious: How the heck does it show my favorite coin is FE cent? That is the case. How'd you know?

Thanks. >>



I said the name flyer [which is commonly used to refer to flying eagle cents] suggests to me that you have an interest in FECs. Under longtimecollector in the members listing, his interests are/were "elongated 1856 Flying Eagle cents, territorial gold bracelets, earrings made from Stellas, Gobrecht Dollar coasters" IIRC his avatar was the WWF wrestler "the Undertaker".

MsMorrisine

theft.

criminal charges.

AKFlyer

Thanks.

People being curious about my old handle is a little amusing. I'm not longtimecollector or any of those guesses. I was never banned, I never got into any disputes and was a rather boring poster overall.

People here will insult and belittle someone so quickly without even reading what someone says. There's way more to my little story than I have revealed, but I revealed way more than I intended. I let the extra details out because the insults and suspicions are infuriating.

Most of the money I've spent on lawyers has been to make sure that my actions (and attitudes) have been above reproach.

namwalker

At what point in time were you made trustee to the estate. Usually there is an inventory put together by the previous trustee. In Illinois I believe that a change in trustee cannot be made without a court appearance and the action being made a matter of record. Such an event could either be an appearance before a judge or a court filing basically saying the b is now replacing a as a matter of record and usually there is providing of an inventory to all parties (beneficiaries, lawyers, and most importantly trustees). Depending upon how long this trust has been in existance there should be annual reporting requirements. Somebody has to have something.

The main bugaboo for me in this fiasco is that there appears to be no clear inventory of what was ever entered into the estate. Since AKflyer is a replacement trustee he should have all these documents. I really do not understand how someone can be made a trustee of an estate without their knowledge or approval. I don't think that it is a simple as saying "I don't feel like doing this anymore let Joe do it now.".

I don't know enough to say it can't happen, but I don't understand how it could happen.

Further, without an inventory from the prior administrator or trustee how can anyone say that now something is missing, unless you prepared an inventory without knowing what was in your purview and control. If that was done that was dangerous step since a "dollar to a biscuit" someone will show up with a previous inventory and will ask "what did you do with .........". When that happens then you're sunk. Are you saying that you did an inventory at one time in the past and now it is gone. If that is so, then do need an attorney and the next thing that needs to be done is to have all beneficiaries removed from having the ability to access the SDB. But that may now be after the horses are gone.

To my way of thinking I someone appointed you without your knowledge how did you get keys to the SDB. If you did take control of an estate without knowing what was in the estate you made one big mistake and you do need competent legal advice on how to get out of the mess.

Do you know the name of the lawyer who drew up the living estate and can you get in contact with him? Start there but finish with you own attorney. You need a lot of help.

The one thing that may be in your favor at this time is your statement that the originator has diminished capacity. If that has been established by a court then anything that anyone says that he let them have the coins is a useless argument, because he can no longer act in a manner of ownership (I would imagine).

I imagine once an item is listed as an inventoried asset then getting it off is either a matter for the court to settle or is a theft.

Good luck. I have a feeling that you're going to need it.

secondrepublic

Not a trust lawyer, but here are my 2 cents: first, it seems you've made a reasonable effort to get the coins back and have even gotten the police involved. Another step could be to write a formal demand to the person who took coins. If you do all that, not sure how anyone would argue you've failed in your duties as trustee. Burning through the trust's money on litigation when the value of the coins is less than the legal fees seems questionable. The best approach might be to very thoroughly and carefully document what you did; the fact that the coins disappeared while the trust beneficiary was taking another person to bank (get a copy of the bank sign-in sheet if there is one); document the legal costs to hiring an attorney; etc. All this will support the argument that you acted prudently if it's ever challenged later. Trustee prudence is largely "process," not just "outcome."

AKFlyer

The terms of this trust are this: In the event that the grantor is incapacitated, the successor trustee become trustee in fact. No choice in the mtter. It happened automatically on the incapacity of the grantor.

The grantor then becomes beneficiary. No court order required. A signed statement from me is sufficient for any and all trust activity. I actually became trustee long before I knew it.

The coins were the proceeds of a sale of real estate that had been owned by the trust. The terms of the trust dictate that all proceeds from that real estate are automatically owned by the trust. All of the beneficiary's financial records are "missing". (ALL records.) So I have to try and trace the ownership of the coins, proving when and how they were obtained.

When I started inquiring about the trust, I got nowhere. The attorney that drew up the trust is dead. I had a little stroke of luck and a copy of this trust fell into my lap.

By a weird coincidence, the attorney who holds the original copy of the trust represents the people who stole the coins. He has no right to keep the trust from me, but has done so. (The people who have the coins are not part of the trust in any fashion.)

The attorney holding the paper had nothing to do with the trust and does not (and has never) represent anyone mentioned in the trust.

MsMorrisine

I would also be pestering the local prosecutor's office.

Alaska Theft Laws


Sec. 11.46.130. Theft in the second degree.

(a) A person commits the crime of theft in the second degree if the person commits theft as defined in AS 11.46.100 and

(1) the value of the property or services is $500 or more but less than $25,000;

:
:

(c) Theft in the second degree is a class C felony.