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HK-685: R8 Santa Monica Breakwater So-Called Dollar - Rarity or Condition?
Zoins
Posts: 33,910 ✭✭✭✭✭
Often times there are questions here about what we value more, rarity or condition. I recently ran into this which I thought was interesting.
The piece is a Santa Monica Breakwater SCD, a design that I've been interested in for a while, so I was pleasantly surprised to find the R8 bronze-aluminium bimetallic HK-685 offered.
As much as I liked the piece; however, it was damaged and after considering it, I decided I would not be happy with it in my collection and passed.
What do you think? If you were interested in an R8, would you be able to overlook the condition? Will I regret on passing (esp if it ends up in a problem free holder?)?
In any event, I hope it ends up in a PCGS holder and on CoinFacts
The piece is a Santa Monica Breakwater SCD, a design that I've been interested in for a while, so I was pleasantly surprised to find the R8 bronze-aluminium bimetallic HK-685 offered.
As much as I liked the piece; however, it was damaged and after considering it, I decided I would not be happy with it in my collection and passed.
What do you think? If you were interested in an R8, would you be able to overlook the condition? Will I regret on passing (esp if it ends up in a problem free holder?)?
In any event, I hope it ends up in a PCGS holder and on CoinFacts
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But the rim dings are an issue.
Hope it finds a good home.
Assuming the opportunity cost wasn't too great, you made a mistake.
Also thanks to Jonathan for showing off his pieces. Great bimetallics
Thought i'd post this HK-684 here.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Thanks for sharing this one.
Brings back memories!
I've got a photo of me- as a lirtle kid, with my sister, cousin and brother, standing with Emmitt Kelly- who was working on the boardwalk during the later days of his career....
For the younger board members, Emmitt Kelly was likely the most famous clown from a previous era...
It's a very cool old Kodachrome!
I'd love to have one of these Tokens!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I believe in the 2nd edition of HK, an R-8 is 2-3 known.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Avoid problem medals. They just make someone else's problem your problem.
Rarity trumps condition in this case, and the condition isn't really all that bad. You passed up the opportunity to spend $200 on something sufficiently
according to the 2nd edition, R-8 equates to 5-10 known. I would also point out that if the OP had bid on it in an auction that the price would have been higher, though if it was a direct sale, not.
Zoins, have you found another example since this one?
Old thread, however, I too wonder if @Zoins found one he liked.... If not, the regret might be growing... Cheers, RickO
Great discussion in this thread and one that has helped form my collecting approach.
Some thoughts on this piece and collecting rarities almost 5 years later:
Condition: Given the rarity of this piece, I don't consider the condition terrible or necessarily bad enough to necessarily warrant a problem grade. TPGs are often more lenient on rarities, providing problem free net grades for rare coins and now for SCDs as well. Here is a SCD example that was graded PCGS XF40:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/979416/thanks-to-pcgs-for-slabbing-hk-unlisted-so-called-dollars
Rarity: If you look for them, you can find many rarities. They come often enough that most people have to pick and choose within their budget. I've purchased some rarities but have also passed on many others. It's not always an easy decision but something you need to live with, sometimes with "passer's regret". You don't get many chances to buy rarities. The ecstasy is when you pick up something that is rare and treasured. The agony is deciding what to go for, what not to go for, and living with the decision. I have some rare SCD items, but no photos readily available. Here's a rare item that I picked up recently:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/986311/new-plasters-for-the-collection-new-rochelle-half-dollar-by-lorrilard-wise
This Piece: For this particular piece, I'm glad it went to the owner that won it who is an avid SCD collector that indicated to me he was looking for years. I have not seen another, but I also have not looked and have realized that, even within SCDs, it would have been something that didn't fit neatly in my collection but I purchased anyway. Of course collectors, including myself, do this all the time:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/989819/post-something-which-didnt-fit-your-collection-that-you-purchased-anyway
That is a cool one I just had one graded two weeks ago here it is.
1933 HK-683 Brass Santa Monica Breakwater
Hoard the keys.
That's a nice looking piece as well!
I do like these pieces and the history of these keeps getting better for me. Whenever I think of Santa Monica now, I'll not only think of my visits there but also of John Percival Jones who founded Santa Monica and his ties to the California Gold Rush, the Comstock Lode, the Carson City Mint and the double dime. It's nice how history of this piece has ties to the gold and silver rushes, as with many things in California. More here from this weekend:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11843482/#Comment_11843482
I always see the full single color blue anodized aluminum ones.
I passed on a orange anodized aluminum one a couple years ago and was curious what that might have been worth?
As some tokens and medals have extremely low survival rates, purchasing ones with problems is sometimes the only option.
The most expensive piece in my collection happens to be the most homely...but show me another!
Excelsior Club/Good for a Scent token by Joseph Merriam. Presumed Unique
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
A NGC MS66 orange anodized sold in a lot of 3 with a NGC MS67 blue anodized and NGC MS62 aluminum version from the Henry Edward Collection for $264 today.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-8PEKF
Quick thought to the catalogers: today, it is difficult to capture the rarity rating for various anodized aluminum versions because all the aluminum versions share a HK number. Should the different colored anodized specimens have separate HK numbers like the following?
For more explicit cataloging, HK-687 could be deprecated for new cataloging and a new number could be issued for non-anodized aluminum as well.
Here is a yellow anodized specimen graded NGC MS65 that sold for $300 in 2014 in a Steve Hayden auction. I think these really should have their own HK numbers.
https://www.civilwartokens.com/Listing/Details/974685/955-HK687-R4-NGC-MS65-1933-Santa-Monica-Breakwater-SoCalled-Dollar
I find the suspension hole location distracting on that one.
I wonder what it looked like when it was suspended? I'm familiar with how holes at near the edge on the top of the obverse are used with standard medal clasps but I'm not sure how these are suspended or used when suspended.
I'm also wondering if holed versions should have a separate HK number. It would be nice to know how many of these are not holed via population numbers.
What exactly is a so called dollar? Would this be the same as a silver round? Probably not, right. Just thought to ask as I purchased one today and it looks to be doubled. But, I cannot find one online to look at and compare.
They are generally dollar sized medals (silver or gold dollar sized) which have exposition, commemorative, monetary and similar themes.
So, lesson learned. It's 7 years later and I still don't have a bi-metallic,
but I did just pick up the following die trial
the seven years that have passed since I originally replied to this thread shows a change in how I think about rarity and condition. in a nutshell, I find little satisfaction in owning something that has a problem which is probably the first thing I'll notice whenever I look at it. my experience tells me that if I'm patient a problem free medal will make itself known. rim dings like the OP medal are a deal killer for me, so is corrosion, unsightly toning, fingerprints and especially suspension holes.
problems are a slippery slope, allowing them into a collection provides justification for others to be there.
in the just passed Stack's sale there was this medal listed early on with no pictures yet loaded: 1908 Elder "Taft" of "Gold Basis" Dollar. HK-812a, DeLorey-61. Rarity-9. Copper. Prooflike Mint State. when I saw it I posted a bid and about a week later I cringed when the pictures finally showed and I hoped hard that someone else would bid!! even though it's listed as an R9, 2-4 known, I would rather have it be in a collection other than mine and my money can be put towards a problem free medal.
For something like this I agree. I was following this one and decided to pass on it as well.
The HK-687 uniface die trial is something I liked because it looked like the die adjustment strikes I've seen minted.
Here's the HK-812a matted with my new software
that die trial looks like it should, the Elder issue looks like no medal ever should, irreparably damaged.
Great to see that one
Agree which is why I passed, but it still sold for a very healthy $660 so there are others that wanted it.
Of course, it is a D. Hansen piece
Interesting and I would think rarity over condition in terms of value. But when coupled condition always seems to have the final word.
That's nice!
Maybe by metal content its rare but when 28 are listed on ebay right now, I am not thinking it's so rare. Just saying.
WS
https://ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=santa+monica+breakwater+&_sacat=0
Agree that the non-bimetallic ones are common.
But I'm specifically talking about the bi-metallic ones in the OP and none are listed on eBay at the moment. No die trials either.
The aluminum center (brass out / aluminum in and bronze out / aluminum in) are not Rarity-8. They may not be offered that frequently anymore but they are out there - I bought at least 10-12 pieces over several years at Long Beach from the late Cali dealer Tim Torpin and a few others from Paul Koppenhaver & Leonard Schafer. The aluminum out / brass in and brass out / bronze in are definitely a full step or two steps above in rarity. I would not call the "nickel" or the sterling silver examples common by any means (especially a silver that has any true luster left).
For several years at Long Beach & at least one of the national token shows there was a good sized old wooden box for sale that contained multiple hundreds of the aluminum HK-687, a smattering of other metals (mainly brass) and some related material. It appeared to be a box of remainders from the original distribution. Unfortunately the majority of the aluminum pieces had oxidation to a great or greater extent, the brass were crusty and most everything had some ocean air problems. It was a neat deal but the asking price was way too high considering that almost all the material was compromised -- I do not know what happened to that box.
Decades ago, I used to go fishing off
Ocean Park. Pioneer Colorado mining man and jeweler Boyd Park passed away there while visiting his daughter for the summer.
His name is on some of the Lesher Dollars. I think he died in 1913.
Taken from an old newspaper, I don’t go back that far, LOL
First time I have seen these pieces.
Maybe by metal content its rare but when 28 are listed on ebay right now, I am not thinking it's so rare. Just saying.
WS
to use Matte Proof Lincoln Cents as a comparison, they are common as a group, but individually the picture changes and they become scarce and the 1909-VDB becomes rare. just saying.
collecting SC$'s by Type within a design can be easier than trying to collect every planchet type of a certain issue. the HK-812a pictured above might be an R-9 but that design in its various incarnations may total closer to 50. it's much easier to wait for another one to show up if you only want the Type.
@Zoins that's an Anillo restrike, not a die trial
Agree about rarity. I consider the two with aluminum centers as R-7 and the two with bronze/brass centers as R-8. That's not technically out of line with your estimates, since R-7 would allow up to 20 examples. Hard to say if the 10-12 that you mention would be part of a total pop of 20 or would push the numbers over 20 total.
A hoard of silver pieces came to market recently. NGC pops list 48 silver examples. That's at least double the pop of any other composition, which isn't a fair comparison since the others are common enough that they rarely get slabbed and so are under-represented in the pops.
Interesting. Are there photos of other Anillo restrikes of these? What die numbers are the other Anillo restrikes known from? All the Anillo restrikes I’ve seen (of other pieces) tend to be really well struck. If it is a restrike, it looks like a die trial of the restrike.
Update: both mine and the one below don't exhibit denticles which I find interesting.
Here's one that's similar to mine but more fully struck. It was sold on eBay for just $44.84 on June 24, 2020. I'm sorry I missed it! It's from po_bob in Asheville, North Carolina so we can call it the Asheville specimen.
It's interesting to note that neither this one nor mine show any denticles which is curious since the rims appear pretty high with denticles on the standard ones.
Also of note, mine is from the #2 die while this is from the #3 die.
Not SCD related, but to the question of condition vs rarity, I think for most there’s a sliding scale. I haven’t purchased a problem coin (knowingly, yet), but Yesterday I got two MS65FBL Franklins and an AG3 (1921) Walker in the mail. I’m equally happy with all of them. Condition/rarity/price/value all lined up. I hope to have a nicer ‘21 Walker one day, but for now, this works for me and my budget and where I’m at as a collector.
If I found a 42/1 Merc that had been cleaned, but still looked nice, I might jump on it. The budget may never afford a really nice one and I like to add to my collection and not save for years (at least at this point). A better budget and more access to coins could change my mind, and I’m working hard to make that day a reality, but I’m the meantime, condition and rarity slosh around on top of each other, for me.
This is a lead uniface specimen which sold on eBay back on Feb 4, 2011. Note the denticles on this piece. This one uses the #10 die.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/santa-monica-breakwater-called-dollar-131860886