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Want to help me corner the market in a gold First Sponse coin??

Since the Gold First Spouse coins came out so late this year if you are a deep pocketed gambler there may be a rare chance to corner a market.

Lets assume the US MInt struck around 3000-3500 proof and around 2000-2500 uncirculated Cleveland second term FS coins

Around 1000 of each have been sold.

There is no time left for a second run so for just about 1.5-2.5 million you could scoop up all that are left, acquiring >50% of total mintage.

Usually attempts to corner a market fail because buying on open market causes prices to rise but here price on remaining coins is fixed.

Since you are buying coins with only a 17% premium over spot bullion your risk beyond bullion worth will be about $250-$500K for say 1,500-2,500 coins.

Destroy, deface or perhaps most interestingly counter stamp say half of your new hoard and watch the remaining coins soar in value as you will have created a new deep low mintage key for the FS series.

If someone will front the money I'll order them today.
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Comments

  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    Are you related to the Hunt brothers?image
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do want you lose your financial butt? Give this scheme a try. This is precisely how the Hunt Brothers took their daddy's fortune, which was one of the largest in the world in its day, and turned it into a huge pile of debt and bankruptcy.

    Losing money is much easier to do than making it.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭
    Of course, all of the risk and losses go to the deep-pocketed buyer you are looking for, as he's the one who will be losing half his hoard to counterstamping or otherwise defacing.

    Sure is easier to lose someone else's money than your own image
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    I could almost guarantee that the Mint would stick it to anyone trying to do something like this. They would either cancel very large orders or just break the rules and mint more. Remember they are into "fairness" and it just would not be fair for some rich greedy hoarder to buy all of the coins and deny everyone the great beauty of the coins.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If there are so many left, there obviously wasn't that much demand for them in the first place.

    Is there any assurance that there ever will be during my lifetime?
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If collectors want to own a coin related item that is connected to Frances Cleveland, they should get one of these pieces. (There are a couple of other varieties in addition to this one.) It is a lot cheaper and has a direct link to historical events that occurred over a century ago. It not some piece of speculation trash that is really worth no more than its melt value.

    BTW the marriage of Grover and Frances Cleveland is very interesting. She was 24 and he was 48 when they got married in the White House. To add spice to the story he had been her legal guardian when she was a baby. He bought her first baby carriage. A romance blossomed between them and they were married.

    You might have thought that this presidential marriage would have cause a scandal, but it didn't. The public loved and embraced her, and she was a very popular First Lady.

    imageimage
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?


  • << <i>Do want you lose your financial butt? Give this scheme a try. This is precisely how the Hunt Brothers took their daddy's fortune, which was one of the largest in the world in its day, and turned it into a huge pile of debt and bankruptcy.

    Losing money is much easier to do than making it. >>


    ......................................................................................

    I was planning on using your money......................not mine.

    Mostly just pointing out the rather rare occurence of a low mintage bullion based coin with a theoretical opportunity to acquire >50% of mintage at a proportunately low cost.

    While mint could close or limit sales I do not believe they could mint more in 2013 without apropriate date change.

    Just a point for discussion......................
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    You might have thought that this presidential marriage would have cause a scandal, but it didn't. The public loved and embraced her, and she was a very popular First Lady.

    imageimage >>




    Wow, that is interesting. Maybe many thought how lovely Mr Cleveland's daughter was.image Of course, the ones that owned the medal would be in the know.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    the more you end up buying the higher the final mintage.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't believe I heard this!!!!!!

    How can you corner the market on CRAP that NOBODY wants!!!!!!!!


  • << <i>the more you end up buying the higher the final mintage. >>


    ...........................................................................................................

    No.....what they have on hand is all they can do.

    Too late for second run................thus the unusual concurrence of events.
  • I doubt these would be worth more than "issue price" even if you owned all of them.

    There are very few collectors of these coins.

    And cornering the market is generally illegal anyway.


  • << <i>I can't believe I heard this!!!!!!

    How can you corner the market on CRAP that NOBODY wants!!!!!!!! >>


    ..............................................................................................................................

    Don't you understand the mentality of collectors??

    Once the collectors hear they can't have it they will suddenly all want it.

    Kind of a perverse Field of Dreams.....................Destroy them and they will come!!
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,430 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I can't believe I heard this!!!!!!

    How can you corner the market on CRAP that NOBODY wants!!!!!!!! >>


    ..............................................................................................................................

    Don't you understand the mentality of collectors??

    Once the collectors hear they can't have it they will suddenly all want it.

    Kind of a perverse Field of Dreams.....................Destroy them and they will come!! >>



    If a number of collectors feel that way at all, the effect is fleeting. Once the frenzy is over the market dies down and nobody cares. The list of modern coins that ended up like this is long and excruciating if you were foolish enough to caught up in the hype. I've watched this happen time after time over the 50+ years that I have been a collector.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?


  • << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>I can't believe I heard this!!!!!!

    How can you corner the market on CRAP that NOBODY wants!!!!!!!! >>


    ..............................................................................................................................

    Don't you understand the mentality of collectors??

    Once the collectors hear they can't have it they will suddenly all want it.

    Kind of a perverse Field of Dreams.....................Destroy them and they will come!! >>



    If a number of collectors feel that way at all, the effect is fleeting. Once the frenzy is over the market dies down and nobody cares. The list of modern coins that ended up like this is long and excruciating if you were foolish enough to caught up in the hype. I've watched this happen time after time over the 50+ years that I have been a collector. >>


    image
  • All glory is fleeting.............
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    You could always make a Frances Cleveland shrine out of all of the gold coins when you discover they are slow to sell. You could charge admission to it and make a small fortune.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • ambro51ambro51 Posts: 13,580 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actual attempts have been made. Mostly ALL of the 1880 gold dollar mintage of 1600 pieces were bought new by two individuals. That is why today with that small mintage it is one of the easiest type 3 dollars to find in high MS


  • << <i>Actual attempts have been made. Mostly ALL of the 1880 gold dollar mintage of 1600 pieces were bought new by two individuals. That is why today with that small mintage it is one of the easiest type 3 dollars to find in high MS >>


    .............................................................
    Thats why they should have counter stamped them!!
  • droopyddroopyd Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭


    << <i>BTW the marriage of Grover and Frances Cleveland is very interesting. She was 24 and he was 48 when they got married in the White House. To add spice to the story he had been her legal guardian when she was a baby. He bought her first baby carriage. A romance blossomed between them and they were married. >>



    Robbing the cradle - literally!
    Me at the Springfield coin show:
    image
    60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,903 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << Want to help me corner the market in a gold First Sponse coin?? >>

    What were you thinking!!!

    There's still 5 hours left in 2012 and I bet the Mint has all its workers on overtime striking an additional 10000000000 Frances Clevelands! image

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • s4nys4ny Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭
    A successful "corner" requires that some other party be short and squeezed. Jay Gould attempted it with gold but failed when the US Government
    sold gold in 1869.

    The Hunt brothers were on their way to a successful corner of the silver market in 1980, but the commodity exchanges increased
    the margin requirements (as many exchange insiders were short and getting hurt) and the Hunts could not hold onto
    their positions.

    If someone bought a large quantity of Cleveland Spouse coins the market might rise but for the participants in the corner to
    profit, they would need a demand for the coins. Once they "corner" participants started selling, the prices would fall.

    A successful corner needs a market participant who is short and squeezed. In 1901 Northern Pacific stock was cornered and rose
    from $150 to $1000 in a few days. In 2008, Porsche cornered shares of Volkswagen which temporarily became the most valuable company
    in the world.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,118 ✭✭✭✭✭
    owning all, or most, of something is only good if others want it.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭
    Hmmmm. Isn't cornering the market on "thin markets" kinda like playing "Financial Russian Roulette"?

    It seems to me that if the "market" were worth chasing on these First Spouse pieces that each and every one would sell out BUT the exact opposite is occuring. Sellouts are almost non-existent and as such, mintages are falling?
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,903 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Let's corner the market on State Quarter Spoons instead.

    I bet no one will notice! image

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)

  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Apparently none of you have seen the price guide for some of the First Spouses. In 70, there are already a handful listed at over $3000, and even some 69's approaching $2000 that were originally sold at or around $500-600 (Andrew Jackson MS69). Not bad to quadruple your money in 4 years.

    The plan sounds pretty solid to me. The premium risk is also nil as almost all of the spouses over 1 or 2 years old have list prices over the current issue price in 69 and of course 70.

    Not to mention, your premiums from the 25-50% of 70's would cover almost any gold price or other pricing risk.

    The only problem to the whole plan is you can't ever unload them in quantity or it would flood the market.
  • LOL how about cornering the market on Chuck E. Cheese tokens?
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭
    This thread sorta makes me think of the canadian old gold coin release. No one wanted them around here until a big lot was sold for a reasonable price.
    People bought multiples thinking they can grade and flip. Yet the market will now be flooded, no one will really seek them out a few years from now like before, and the end result is an overall cheaper price. Maybe even the price the mint sold them for... Dunno.. But some of the concepts are the same here. The mentality of coin collectors and gambling on a chance to win.
  • OPAOPA Posts: 17,104 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Let's corner the market on State Quarter Spoons instead.

    I bet no one will notice! image >>



    Those that did, are 'laughing all the way to the bank." image
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • OverdateOverdate Posts: 6,903 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Let's corner the market on State Quarter Spoons instead.
    I bet no one will notice! image >>


    Those that did, are 'laughing all the way to the bank." image >>


    Depends on which state.

    My Adolph A. Weinman signature :)



  • << <i>This thread sorta makes me think of the canadian old gold coin release. No one wanted them around here until a big lot was sold for a reasonable price.
    People bought multiples thinking they can grade and flip. Yet the market will now be flooded, no one will really seek them out a few years from now like before, and the end result is an overall cheaper price. Maybe even the price the mint sold them for... Dunno.. But some of the concepts are the same here. The mentality of coin collectors and gambling on a chance to win. >>



    Many of the dates of the canadian gold coins offered are, and will remain to be rare coins due to the very low mintages, as well as the huge amount being offically melted.

    Dont jump to conclusions - anyone who ordered did not get charged for - or recieve any coins yet - as a result no hoard coins have been graded - or sold (besides "presales").

  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>This thread sorta makes me think of the canadian old gold coin release. No one wanted them around here until a big lot was sold for a reasonable price.
    People bought multiples thinking they can grade and flip. Yet the market will now be flooded, no one will really seek them out a few years from now like before, and the end result is an overall cheaper price. Maybe even the price the mint sold them for... Dunno.. But some of the concepts are the same here. The mentality of coin collectors and gambling on a chance to win. >>



    Many of the dates of the canadian gold coins offered are, and will remain to be rare coins due to the very low mintages, as well as the huge amount being offically melted.

    Dont jump to conclusions - anyone who ordered did not get charged for - or recieve any coins yet - as a result no hoard coins have been graded - or sold (besides "presales"). >>



    So they were rare before but now the pops have doubled or tripled or more and they are still rare? We have very diff ideas of what rare means especially when the original demand will likely be the same a few years from now.

    But my point was, people buy coins all the time based on speculation. The op was just presenting it on a larger scale. Both scenarios have a possible limit on pops, a possible spike in demand then a cooling off period afterwards, people maybe wanting them because others want them, etc... Every year we see these types of things played out.

    I am not saying they are lousy coins but many got on board with profits glistening in their eyes. Buying 10-20 of a certain date could very well be a percentage of known existing.


  • << <i>Apparently none of you have seen the price guide for some of the First Spouses. In 70, there are already a handful listed at over $3000, and even some 69's approaching $2000 that were originally sold at or around $500-600 (Andrew Jackson MS69). Not bad to quadruple your money in 4 years.

    The plan sounds pretty solid to me. The premium risk is also nil as almost all of the spouses over 1 or 2 years old have list prices over the current issue price in 69 and of course 70.

    Not to mention, your premiums from the 25-50% of 70's would cover almost any gold price or other pricing risk.

    The only problem to the whole plan is you can't ever unload them in quantity or it would flood the market. >>


    .................................................................................................................................................................................
    The whole purpose of this thread was to point out the unusual occurance of a very low mintage, bullion based coin issued a very end of year with limited sales to date.

    That combination of circumstances occurs rarely.

    Actually a large part of an attempt to 'corner' this issue would depend on you destroying/defaceing or my favorite ..........counter stamping a large part of your hoard to reduce dramaticly the over all supply.

    Instead of a mintage of say 2500 effective mintage would be ~1500-1750.

    The basic assumption would be that by reducing the supply by say 750-1000 coins you could recover your lost 17% on the ones you destroyed/defaced by a rise of greater than 17% on the remaining half of your hoard.

    Actually I expect that a sudden sellout combined with a public video of you counter stamping large numbers of coins would create quite an interesting situation!!


    I would do it myself for fun but alas....too few funds.


  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I get annoyed when people start a provocative thread and get slammed for it. While I do not agree that the idea suggested would be wise or fruitful, it does make for interesting discussion.

    Here are three pros and cons for the idea:

    PROS:
    1. The value of the coin is a fraction over melt, so if gold goes up enough in value, you could win, even if the numismatic value goes to zero. IMO, there are better ways to speculate on bullion, but you can do a lot worse.
    2. If the series ever gets hot or promoted down the road, the owner of this hoard could slowly leak his holdings on the market.
    3. Some people, just for special interest or any idiosyncratic reason, like a certain coin and enjoy owning multiples.

    CONS:
    1. Unpopular historical figure depicted with an unattractive coin in an unpopular coin series.
    2. Unlikely series to become HOT in future.
    3. Expensive coin to take a flyer, let alone hoard.
  • Expensive is a relative term.

    There are some on this board who don't blink at buying million dollar coins and paying 10-15% juice to boot.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Silly premise as the 2013 spouse coins are also NOT on the Mint schedule for 2013 (just as the 2012 coins were not) and may appear in the 4th quarter of 2013 just as the 2012 coins did.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • The delay in 2012 release was due to a problem with planchets was it not?

    Do you expect that to last for another year??
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Did the US Mint know they had a planchet problem when they failed to place all 4 different spouse coins on the roster for 2012 back in late 2011?

    If so, why are the 2013 spouse coins not on the roster now?

    My point is simply this ... would anything surprise you now with the spouse program after what we have seen thus far?

    Alice Paul as Pres. Arthur's rendition of Liberty? !

    Coins pulled as no longer available out of sequence!

    Etc., etc.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • ProofCollectionProofCollection Posts: 5,321 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Along with Wondercoin's comments, there are so many aspects of this program that mean that some of these coins will be or are likely to be extra rare and hence, valuable. There are a lot of skeptics, but I have collected 1 of each since day 1 and sent them in for PCGS grading receiving mostly 69's but a few 70's. Per the PCGS price guide through 2011, I am up 100.4% on my investment including grading costs. These are not a bad investment.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "I am up 100.4% on my investment including grading costs"

    Heck ... you are up that much on the 2007 commons that had a mint issue price of $410.95 back in 2007 and now melt for over twice that amount!

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Did any of you guys realize this was a tongue in cheek post to start with??
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The presidential dollars are slow movers but their wives go out as soon as they arrive. They're hot.
  • ronsrons Posts: 338 ✭✭
    Another Con might be a precipitous drop in the price of goldimage It could happenimage
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson
  • theumptheump Posts: 634 ✭✭


    << <i>A successful "corner" requires that some other party be short and squeezed. Jay Gould attempted it with gold but failed when the US Government
    sold gold in 1869.

    The Hunt brothers were on their way to a successful corner of the silver market in 1980, but the commodity exchanges increased
    the margin requirements (as many exchange insiders were short and getting hurt) and the Hunts could not hold onto
    their positions. >>




    What the gov't did back in 1980 was complete fraud. In order to contain the silver price they allowed sell orders only. One could not buy silver on Comex.
  • HalfStrikeHalfStrike Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭
    the top Con to this is nobody knows how many coins the mint has to sell, so without that knowledge you would be taking a huge risk in trying to corner one of these. If you guessed wrong you would have to melt most of the coins you purchased, and it could be a much larger amount than you thought you might have to.
  • HalfStrikeHalfStrike Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭
    A Lucy Hayes MS70 Early release sold for $2695 Dec. 30th, that is nothing to sneeze at.
  • nagsnags Posts: 789 ✭✭✭✭
    If someone had this type of cash as "just having fun" money, and there is an extremely high degree of probability that no more will be minted, it would be fun to try. I wouldn't damage any of the coins, just keep them in the sealed boxes.

    I would then start buying all the others I could find on the secondary market. Although the demand is small, after a few years of purchasing every one offered for sale, from every possible source, the available population would be pretty limited. All of this would have to be done without any disclosure. I'd think that within 5 years time there would almost never be any offered for sale and the price may spike.
  • sniocsusniocsu Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭
    I don't believe there is enough demand for it to work.
  • That was my thought about the whole series.
  • The real question is whether a group of dealers or deep pocketed collectors can corner the market in this case.
    It happens all the time over the history of this hobby.
    To the free man, the country is the collection of individuals who compose it, not something over and above them. -M. Friedman

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