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So what will become of all the coins trapped in the wrong plastic?
seateddime
Posts: 6,180 ✭✭✭
There are so many great coin locked into plastic for the wrong reasons. What will become of these?
I know I have the Elaisberg 1852 dime in a NGC holder as a 67. I have yet to cross any seated dime as a 67. Many have CAC stickers but are locked into the plastic they are in. As I review the Heritage catalog and see many fine coins in non Pcgs plastic. What will become of most of them over time?
I know I have the Elaisberg 1852 dime in a NGC holder as a 67. I have yet to cross any seated dime as a 67. Many have CAC stickers but are locked into the plastic they are in. As I review the Heritage catalog and see many fine coins in non Pcgs plastic. What will become of most of them over time?
I seldom check PM's but do check emails often jason@seated.org
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
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<< <i>What will become of most of them over time? >>
They'll be collected for what they are by people who don't care for the taste of Kool Aid?
My icon IS my coin. It is a gem 1949 FBL Franklin.
<< <i>
<< <i>What will become of most of them over time? >>
They'll be collected for what they are by people who don't care for the taste of Kool Aid? >>
Or by those who still love the taste, but have chosen a wiser course!!!
<< <i>If it truly is a 67.....it will cross. If not I would rather have it in a PCGS66 holder! >>
How many NGC 67's do you have? I will replace them with PCGS 66's all day and night long!
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
So I would make you the trade and save crossover cost.
<< <i>>>>How many NGC 67's do you have? I will replace them with PCGS 66's all day and night long! <<<
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
So I would make you the trade and save crossover cost. >>
Your not packing any 67 Peace dollars are you?? I'll even give you 2 66's back for every one. Hell, I'll give you 5 for 1 on those!
<< <i>...................When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are....... >>
Are you that serious? Geez, I like pcgs, but I am not blind.
Yes, I am serious. I am speaking from experience. I have crossed a LOT of dimes.
It's a fact.
<< <i>>>>How many NGC 67's do you have? I will replace them with PCGS 66's all day and night long! <<<
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
So I would make you the trade and save crossover cost. >>
Where are these dealers that will sell a CACed NGC67 for 66 money?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>There are so many great coin locked into plastic for the wrong reasons. What will become of these?
I know I have the Elaisberg 1852 dime in a NGC holder as a 67. I have yet to cross any seated dime as a 67. Many have CAC stickers but are locked into the plastic they are in. As I review the Heritage catalog and see many fine coins in non Pcgs plastic. What will become of most of them over time? >>
Collectors like me will buy the properly graded coins in NGC holders for less money. The classic term for "Kool Aid Drinker" is "myopic" a.k.a. "shortsighted."
<< <i>>>>Are you that serious? Geez, I like pcgs, but I am not blind. <<<
Yes, I am serious. I am speaking from experience. I have crossed a LOT of dimes.
It's a fact. >>
Anecdotal evidence is NOT a fact.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
I just cracked a MS61 NGC for a PCGS AU58 and there is about a 2k difference in the grade for PCGS coins that said I paid AU58 money for it so it is ok. While I like buying marginally cheaper coins in off holders for retail if the coin is right the real hit comes when one tries to sell them.
It's not the plastic that is typically wrong, but the opinion of the graded coin inside.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
If I like the coin I buy it, then I decide which holder I want it to be in, Dansco, Whitman, NGC, or PCGS
Many I have sent in for grading and variety attribution now reside in both PCGS and NGC holders
The look of the coin determins where it will fit into my collection.
Sure I like PCGS certified coins but I always buy the coin not the slab.
My Kennedy Proof collection consists of PCGS, NGC, and old Anacs slabs.
I also have a near complete raw MS and PR major variety set.
Regards, Larry
a TPG is today because there are just too many coins graded from 1998-2008 that have to be dealt with. And crossing them into newer holders is not the answer as that would only
defeat the purpose of trying to make properly graded coins going forward. As long as that overhang from 1998-2008 exists, it will be a huge drag on all currently graded specimens
as well as those older holders that are nice for the grade (ie stickered). We all know that prior to 1986 a nice coin sold itself. And if it were nice, you could always find someone who
shared your opinion. That's not the case today with holder bias. I don't know how many times I've been told "that's in the wrong holder" or "it would look better in X's holder" or I'd
pay your price if it were in X's holder. It doesn't necessarily help to downgrade a coin into the same type plastic as the coin will still be subject to holder bias. Gresham's Law applies
here and suggests good plastic will go into hiding. But wrong plastic is subject to current market pricing. I know a lot of people are socking away solid coins in wrong plastic by taking
the contrarian approach. The current trend has been with us since about 1993-1995. I don't see any reason on the horizon that it should change. All us dinosaurs can claim that we
buy the coin, not the holder just as we did in the pre-slab era. Let's face it, that era is dead. There are too many new people in the hobby that do buy the holder, or only buy the holder.
That trend is growing as well. The internet and technology has brought in a lot of fresh faces, who don't just buy the coin.....the plastic has to match as well. There aren't enough coin
buyers thinking like Bill Jones and Realone to stem the tide of those seeking only "holders." While some have suggested that they are ready buyers of such coins but only if the price is
commensurate with a 1 pt deduction (MS/PF). Good luck with that. We aren't quite at the point yet....but it's getting closer. For those that have to sell today, they don't have the choice
of waiting it out to see if things will change. They have to seriously think about changing holders or accepting whatever prices they get.
The problem can be corrected in only 2 ways:
1. wait for the current stagnant rare coin market to end such that the wrong plastic premiums shrink to bull market norms (5-15% price differences similar to 2002-2007).
2. regrade/pay the difference in price for the millions of low end coins produced over the past 20 yrs or so.
Considering the huge cost to do number 2, it's pretty clear what the options are. There was really no such thing as "wrong" plastic back in 1987-1990. Wonder why that was.
<< <i>Since when is an NGC slab the "wrong plastic"? >>
I don't think it is but it seems many disagree.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
I have ms61 ANACS coins now PCGS 65 and ANACS 65 coins in ms62 holders.
I think one day there are some ANACS, Ngc and Igc coins that will seem like bargain buys 10 years from now.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
You need to check your meds.......that has NEVER been.
<< <i>>>>Nice info RR. IIRC once upon a time our hosts coins were the 'wrong plastic' and ATS traded higher. <<<
You need to check your meds.......that has NEVER been. >>
Obviously you were not watching the market very closely in 1987-1988 when NGC first came on line. In fact shortly after they started slabbing their product in
gem US type coins were bringing a 10% premium to PCGS coins. It didn't last all that long, maybe 6-12 months before they both started bringing the same prices.
I had a superb gem 1904 PF barber half that I had bought raw in 1984 as a PF67. It came back PF65 from NGC when I first submitted in either late 1987 or early 1988.
I was devastated as I had paid $5000+ for that coin and on paper it was now worth $3500. I mentioned the coin to Ellesmere and over the phone he offered me 10%
over PCGS money. He and others were well aware that out of the gate NGC was grading very strict....almost stupidly strict. It was very diffcult to get a 66 on any gem silver
type. I decided to hold and got the coin regraded by NGC a few months later....PF66. A similar thing happened to PCGS when they first came out in 1986 that the prices of MS65
Morgans went crazy. The tight PCGS standards out of the gate coupled with almost no product in the market place yet created a perfect storm. Same thing when NGC opened its
doors. I was in the coin market full time from Jan 1988 to October 1989 attending numerous major shows.
DeliaBug is correct in that NGC coins were trading for more money even if technically neither TPG was the wrong plastic. As my memory serves there were several ebbs and flows
between PCGS and NGC coins in that 1987-1989 era were brief periods one may have been favored over the other. That also varied by series. For instance PCGS was always much
tougher on large MS coppers and MS 3 cent silvers. There were specific coins that NGC was tougher on as well. But by 1990 NGC was the place to go to if you had a toned coin and
wanted the maximum grade. It wasn't a huge difference but a big enough one to be worth the effort. In 1988 I also had a pair of essentially gem New Orleans quarters get graded.
I sent the deeper toned one to NGC and the more flashy one to PCGS. I had paid 65 money for both in 1983-1984. So I was not happy when both came back 64. What to do? I
reversed the logic and sent the coins back - toned one to PCGS and flashier one to NGC. Both came back MS65.
<< <i>
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
>>
So not true.
<< <i>
<< <i>
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
>>
So not true. >>
Actually, technically it would be true that the NGC he buys is a point less - because if the seller is willing to sell it at a point less it probably is. Kind of a self fulfilling prophesy.
Now, that is not to infer that ALL coins in NGC holders are a point less - just the ones he buys.
<< <i>
<< <i>
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
>>
So not true. >>
It may not be true that they are a point less, or even 0.1 less. But the fact remains is that they do bring less. The point is no longer debatable as there is too much evidence
to say otherwise. If you wanted my pop 1 NGC MS67 CAC 1862 seated half (finest known) you could have bought it out of the 2011 summer ANA sale for 66 money. Even a
non-stickered PCGS 67 would have fetched 15-20% more....a stickered one 30% more. There are many NGC coins selling for 1 pt less that are solid for their current grades.
It is what it is....unfortunately. If I were buying now I'd expect the 1 pt discount as well or keep shopping for one until I find it. Judging from recent auction results the 1pt
sale is still in progress. But I would agree with TDN that the majority of non-stickered coins bringing 1 pt less probably are in the wrong plastic. But how do you explain the
stickered ones that bring 1 pt less? I auctioned off a pile of NGC stickered MS65-67 type coins a couple years back. Nearly all of them sold for a sizeable discount to
stickered "correct" plastic. The ones that brought great prices were invariably correct plastic + sticker + eye appeal. But there was one exception where a NGC MS67* half dime
brought 3X PCGS money. In fairness to that coin, it was originally graded MS67 back in 1989-1990. It was a borderline 68 coin with Wayte Raymond toning. I could never get
it to upgrade nor could I even cross it at 67 grade (4 attempts). I've never been able to cross a MS66 or MS67 19th century silver type coin.
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
>>
So not true. <<<
Sorry......BUT SO TRUE!!!!!
I know what I bought!
I know what I paid!
I know what they crossed at!!!!!
GEEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
When I buy ngc coins I usually buy them at a point less......because that is what they are.
>>
So not true. >>
Actually, technically it would be true that the NGC he buys is a point less - because if the seller is willing to sell it at a point less it probably is. Kind of a self fulfilling prophesy.
Now, that is not to infer that ALL coins in NGC holders are a point less - just the ones he buys. >>
This appears to be a fact. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>You need to check your meds....... >>
LOL!
Now, that is not to infer that ALL coins in NGC holders are a point less - just the ones he buys. >>
This appears to be a fact. MJ <<<
Most of these are not dealers BUT in auctions bidding against others who feel the same way!
It's not just me picking on ngc folks......IT'S A FACT....just compare the PCGS and ngc price list for same coins same grade.
This is NOT kool aid.......THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!!
"What will happen to all the coins trapped in overgraded plastic?"
Personally, I think many of them become trapped for an extended period of time -- with the new owners too scared to lose value by crossing them into correctly graded plastic.
<< <i>A more interesting and less divisive version of the OP's question might be:
"What will happen to all the coins trapped in overgraded plastic?"
Personally, I think many of them become trapped for an extended period of time -- with the new owners too scared to lose value by crossing them into correctly graded plastic. >>
+1
Did I overpay?.....Dunno!
Can you buy this coin from me at a point less......?
Here is what the late David Akers said about this date....from COINFACTS:
David Akers (1975/88): This is the lowest mintage quarter eagle after 1885. Despite the fact that there are 36 auction records in unc. for this date in our 226 catalog auction survey, I must admit that I have seen relatively few truly choice specimens. In fact, I have seen more choice proofs than I have choice uncirculated pieces. Most of the Uncs. that I have seen have not been choice at all. This is in contrast, for example, to the 1894 which has appeared at auction in Unc. only one more time than the 1892. Most of the 1894's I have seen have been extremely choice, while the majority of the 1892's have been "scruffy".
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
<< <i>A more interesting and less divisive version of the OP's question might be:
"What will happen to all the coins trapped in overgraded plastic?"
Personally, I think many of them become trapped for an extended period of time -- with the new owners too scared to lose value by crossing them into correctly graded plastic. >>
I know I sell a ms67 ngc dime for more than a 66 ngc all day long. There are a lot of pcgs./cac ms66 dimes in the $1000 - $1400 range. I doubt you can by a ngc 67 common date for less than $1900 I actually did by pcgs/cac* coins with better strikes and I appeal to replace ms-67 for my set.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>>>>Actually, technically it would be true that the NGC he buys is a point less - because if the seller is willing to sell it at a point less it probably is. Kind of a self fulfilling prophesy.
Now, that is not to infer that ALL coins in NGC holders are a point less - just the ones he buys. >>
This appears to be a fact. MJ <<<
Most of these are not dealers BUT in auctions bidding against others who feel the same way!
It's not just me picking on ngc folks......IT'S A FACT....just compare the PCGS and ngc price list for same coins same grade.
This is NOT kool aid.......THIS IS THE WAY IT IS!!!!! >>
Kool aid the way you debate it. You do no favors to PCGS the way you present it.
You just went from spewing about NGC coins being a point less then PCGS coins to PCGS bringing more money at the same grade. Make up your mind. Two different debate points. The second of which is true but don't it use to make your first point which is not fact as an absolute. It's only fact in your universe of coins you have tried to cross. I'm sorry that you have so much problem getting NGC coins into PCGS holders at the same grade. Lot's of folks make a living at crossing NGC coins at the same grade or better. It is in PCGS's best interest to get the great NGC coins into their plastic.
This is the way it is in your head. You are stubborn so I suppose me and others are wasting their time.
I still have a soft spot in my heart for you.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I have a coin that sold for $100k in an NGC holder and then $200k in the same grade PCGS holder a few months later. Tell me - which was the smarter purchase? >>
Thanks. That was my point to Dimeman. Lot's of NGC coins cross at the same grade or better and PCGS coins go for more money at the same grade.
I rest my case your honor.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I know how the two (PCGS & ngc) compare and how the crossing goes. Those of you that like ngc will keep on liking ngc.
No problem.....I want PCGS and that will continue!
This is my last post to this thread.
<< <i>MJ - It seems to me that point #2 supports point #1.....BUT...I'm tired of defending my point.
I know how the two (PCGS & ngc) compare and how the crossing goes. Those of you that like ngc will keep on liking ngc.
No problem.....I want PCGS and that will continue!
This is my last post to this thread.
It doesn't at all.
Since I get the last word I will use it. Jon, Merry Christmas and a Healthy New Year to you and yours.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Practice makes perfect & nobody is perfect. So, practice being nobody.
<< <i>I have a coin that sold for $100k in an NGC holder and then $200k in the same grade PCGS holder a few months later. Tell me - which was the smarter purchase? >>
While in this example the NGC coin was where the smart money was the discount most likely represented the risk of getting it into PCGS plastic and the decreased liquidity of a 6 figure NGC coin which will never be an easy sell at top of the market values save for a mega rarity with a rabid fan base.
A counter point would have been how smart the money would have been if it didn't cross at the same grade or at all. Once in PCGS plastic it removes all doubt if it will make it and puts the market at ease. None of my statement are actually about the quality about any signal coins in any plastic but merely market tastes and their willingness to pay up.
<< <i>Thanks. That was my point to Dimeman. Lot's of NGC coins cross at the same grade or better and PCGS coins go for more money at the same grade.
I rest my case your honor. MJ >>
Hmmm....."lots of NGC coins cross at the same grade,or better." That's true for some areas and some people....not me though.
I've been primarily an NGC coin buyer for the past 25 years and I NEVER was able to cross any of my gem 19th century silver type into PCGS holders no matter how
many times I tried. A lot of these coins ended up getting stickered. What's particularly puzzling to me is that while I apparently cannot grade NGC coins in their holders, I've
done quite well over the years both cracking out NGC coins to achieve the same or higher grade at PCGS as well as upgrading/regrading PCGS coins to the next grade. I've
also done well buying raw coins that worked quite well. What I never learned to do was cross nice NGC coins. I can only surmise that the extra thick NGC plastic along with the white
background has played tricks on my eyes all these years. I still marvel that on my best PCGS submission I went 3 for 3 on upgrades in old holders (all MS65 to 66 seated halves). Yet,
I've never gotten a single NGC gem seated coin to cross....finest knowns, pop 1's, etc. it made no difference. So in the future, I'll stick to regrading PCGS coins...less downside.
Let's not bring gem gold coins into this discussion. They are totally different from silver type. For one, you don't have all the interfering toning that causes so many disputes between
TPG's. And secondly, much gold type trades sight-unseen regardless of holder for almost the same price. You don't have this in the other metals other than for common date MS silver
dollars.
I have a coin that sold for $100k in an NGC holder and then $200k in the same grade PCGS holder a few months later. Tell me - which was the smarter purchase?
No doubt a smart purchase and play by the entity that got the upgrade. Tell me, was it a collector or dealer? Realone is collecting nice, old holdered NGC gem bust and
seated coins. I'd love to see him send that group in to PCGS in one shot for a cross and see what the batting average is. Would be a great data point for us all. I'd like to see how
someone else makes out with those kinds of coins.