"Details" grades, how does this make you feel?
RevDrBlimber
Posts: 391
I had a bad run recently, I bought ten raw coins that I looked at fairly carefully. Both the dealers I bought them from and a couple of other people who know coins at shows saw most of them and thought they were good coins that were accurately graded by the selling dealers. What am I missing? How vital is it to have a magnifier with a point or halogen light source vs. just the common magnifiers without a point light source? I don't blame the grading services they know what they are doing and like any other quality control service or system out there, they are doing the best they can. Still it makes me feel like my analysis system for knowing what to get graded is lacking. Anyone with insights on this here?
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Comments
What were the main "problems" that the graders said your coins had?
I think it's important to have a light source when examining potential purchases. Especially with smaller sized coins.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>
Great advice. If you want slabbed coins, buy them already slabbed and save yourself grief and disappointment.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
1. A coin's surfaces can only be seen with proper lighting. Rarely can you find that on a bourse floor. So most of the time you are buying coins blindly.
2. Most people, including dealers, are poor graders. It's very easy to miss something.
3. If you are buying raw coins, or any not graded by PCGS, be very careful. There is a reason why it's not already in a PCGS holder. You better find out.
4. There are a lot of great coins in Genuine holders. Coins that have been cleaned over the years or have some other problem that doesn't diminish the fact that they are scarce and desirable. That's why we came up with the service.
We can enjoy all kinds of coins!
<< <i> "Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>
Would make me feel better than a "no decision" coin returned with submission money refunded and wondering what to do next. Been there, done that.
For me most of the time means my money stays in my wallet.
<< <i> 1. A coin's surfaces can only be seen with proper lighting. Rarely can you find that on a bourse floor. So most of the time you are buying coins blindly. >>
This.
Any suggestions as to a portable lighting type/system that makes life any easier? I have a (semi) portable Ott light that seems to help a bit, but is far from perfect.
<< <i>You are going about this the wrong way. Remember that evaluating a coin for purchase is a BUSINESS decision. Use magnification, properly. Take however much time you feel you need---what takes an experienced collector, dealer or grader 15 sec to see may take you 10-30 minutes. Then figure out what it's realistically worth. Most of the time, the only reasonable thing to do is keep your money in your wallet.
In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>
The response above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum or anywhere else. I think it's worth reading again...and again.
I would be reluctant to buy from those dealers again, and to use those advisers again. The dealers may not know, or they might well know and are telling a customer a story to sell coins. If those were the only ten coins submitted, and the adviser(s) looked at ten coins and went zero for ten, they are near worthless as resources, no matter how nice they might be or how many years they might have in the hobby. In either case, it is not an experience that I would want to repeat.
There is nothing wrong with buying and collecting details coins, or coins with problems. If there is no one to help at these small shows, lower your bids on the raw coins or avoid those dealers. If a person is paying typical retail prices for these problem coins, they could definitely do better. I would not go so far as to say buy certified only, because there are plenty of marginal or questionable coins in slabs too, but it is a thought.
<< <i>You are going about this the wrong way. Remember that evaluating a coin for purchase is a BUSINESS decision. Use magnification, properly. Take however much time you feel you need---what takes an experienced collector, dealer or grader 15 sec to see may take you 10-30 minutes. Then figure out what it's realistically worth. Most of the time, the only reasonable thing to do is keep your money in your wallet.
In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>
You hit many important points. Well said.
Nice to see Don back.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
unfortunately, if they are damaged coins it is not just the "one point off effect."
How would it make me feel to get genuined? Probably similar to above, but the best way to deal with it is to post some pictures and get some opinions if you are doing something wrong.
As for buying raw coins, it's my view that a lot of what dealers offer at a bourse is raw for a reason, and those reasons are not to your advantage. The only coins that I would buy raw where what appeared to be "fresh" material that came from a collector or from an "old time" dealer who bought coins through his shop. Even then I went over every piece very carefully. Most of the stuff in the books was problem material that would not grade. Most of it had been cleaned or worse.
I agree with those who advise you to buy coins in the holders that you want, and not get involved with buying raw coins that have graded yourself. The chances of buying problem material are too great, if you are not an expert grader who knows how to spot problems.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>"Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>
Depends on the coin.
Suppose you have a coin in a 63 holder that you're so sure is undergraded that you crack it out and resubmit it raw and it comes back BB'd for hairlines. How does that make you feel?
Suppose, after showing that coin to half a dozen different people and none of them can see a hint of a hairline, you decide to crack it out again and send it to a different grading service. And it comes back BB'd for questionable color. How does that make you feel?
Suppose you next show that coin to several more people, none of whom have any issue with the color and you decide to crack it out yet again and send it to the original grading sevice. And it comes back in a 65 holder. How does that make you feel?
Which grade is right?
<< <i>
<< <i>"Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>
Depends on the coin.
Suppose you have a coin in a 63 holder that you're so sure is undergraded that you crack it out and resubmit it raw and it comes back BB'd for hairlines. How does that make you feel?
Suppose, after showing that coin to half a dozen different people and none of them can see a hint of a hairline, you decide to crack it out again and send it to a different grading service. And it comes back BB'd for questionable color. How does that make you feel?
Suppose you next show that coin to several more people, none of whom have any issue with the color and you decide to crack it out yet again and send it to the original grading sevice. And it comes back in a 65 holder. How does that make you feel?
Which grade is right? >>
Is this a hypothetical scenario?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>No. >>
Wow! I'd like to see a pic of this coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
only to find out later they detailed.
Did you pay a meaningful discounted price
from the grade you thought they were if slabbef?
I buy coins raw frequently (world) and have
similar experiences as you have had.
But I have also hit some home runs.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.