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"Details" grades, how does this make you feel?

I had a bad run recently, I bought ten raw coins that I looked at fairly carefully. Both the dealers I bought them from and a couple of other people who know coins at shows saw most of them and thought they were good coins that were accurately graded by the selling dealers. What am I missing? How vital is it to have a magnifier with a point or halogen light source vs. just the common magnifiers without a point light source? I don't blame the grading services they know what they are doing and like any other quality control service or system out there, they are doing the best they can. Still it makes me feel like my analysis system for knowing what to get graded is lacking. Anyone with insights on this here?

Comments

  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,237 ✭✭✭

    What were the main "problems" that the graders said your coins had?

    I think it's important to have a light source when examining potential purchases. Especially with smaller sized coins.
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  • SonorandesertratSonorandesertrat Posts: 5,695 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You are going about this the wrong way. Remember that evaluating a coin for purchase is a BUSINESS decision. Use magnification, properly. Take however much time you feel you need---what takes an experienced collector, dealer or grader 15 sec to see may take you 10-30 minutes. Then figure out what it's realistically worth. Most of the time, the only reasonable thing to do is keep your money in your wallet.

    In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being.
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  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>



    Great advice. If you want slabbed coins, buy them already slabbed and save yourself grief and disappointment.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the case of a rare but heavily worn and lightly damaged 1793 Liberty Cap cent that I sold to a forum member a while back, both he and I were pleased to get a Genuine-Details grade on it, especially after a few wanne-be experts publicly challenged the authenticity based on a couple of photos.......but honestly, that is the only time I wasn't bummed about getting a 'genny' grade!


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  • DonWillisDonWillis Posts: 961 ✭✭✭
    Hey I'm back.

    1. A coin's surfaces can only be seen with proper lighting. Rarely can you find that on a bourse floor. So most of the time you are buying coins blindly.

    2. Most people, including dealers, are poor graders. It's very easy to miss something.

    3. If you are buying raw coins, or any not graded by PCGS, be very careful. There is a reason why it's not already in a PCGS holder. You better find out.

    4. There are a lot of great coins in Genuine holders. Coins that have been cleaned over the years or have some other problem that doesn't diminish the fact that they are scarce and desirable. That's why we came up with the service.

    We can enjoy all kinds of coins!






  • Thank you very much for your thorough response, Mr. Willis! At many of the smaller shows especially it is hard and sometimes quite impossible to find someone who can identify problem coins or small problems on coins that prevent a numerical grade. Glad you are back and may I wish you good health!
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭


    << <i> "Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>



    Would make me feel better than a "no decision" coin returned with submission money refunded and wondering what to do next. Been there, done that.
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << "Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>

    For me most of the time means my money stays in my wallet.

    image


  • << <i> 1. A coin's surfaces can only be seen with proper lighting. Rarely can you find that on a bourse floor. So most of the time you are buying coins blindly. >>



    This.

    Any suggestions as to a portable lighting type/system that makes life any easier? I have a (semi) portable Ott light that seems to help a bit, but is far from perfect.
    A conquering army on the border will not be stopped by eloquence.
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,504 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You are going about this the wrong way. Remember that evaluating a coin for purchase is a BUSINESS decision. Use magnification, properly. Take however much time you feel you need---what takes an experienced collector, dealer or grader 15 sec to see may take you 10-30 minutes. Then figure out what it's realistically worth. Most of the time, the only reasonable thing to do is keep your money in your wallet.

    In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>


    The response above is one of the best I've ever read on this forum or anywhere else. I think it's worth reading again...and again.
  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608
    There have been some good points already. A few more to think about, how long has the original poster been in the hobby? How would you rate your own grading skills? Were those the only 10 coins in the submission and it went zero for 10? Or where there many other coins in the submission that got graded? What kinds of problems, and what kinds of coins were they?

    I would be reluctant to buy from those dealers again, and to use those advisers again. The dealers may not know, or they might well know and are telling a customer a story to sell coins. If those were the only ten coins submitted, and the adviser(s) looked at ten coins and went zero for ten, they are near worthless as resources, no matter how nice they might be or how many years they might have in the hobby. In either case, it is not an experience that I would want to repeat.

    There is nothing wrong with buying and collecting details coins, or coins with problems. If there is no one to help at these small shows, lower your bids on the raw coins or avoid those dealers. If a person is paying typical retail prices for these problem coins, they could definitely do better. I would not go so far as to say buy certified only, because there are plenty of marginal or questionable coins in slabs too, but it is a thought.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You are going about this the wrong way. Remember that evaluating a coin for purchase is a BUSINESS decision. Use magnification, properly. Take however much time you feel you need---what takes an experienced collector, dealer or grader 15 sec to see may take you 10-30 minutes. Then figure out what it's realistically worth. Most of the time, the only reasonable thing to do is keep your money in your wallet.

    In order to become even moderately proficient in this, you need to see LOTS of coins in hand---good, bad, and ugly. You cannot learn to grade well just by looking at images in books or on your computer monitor. Coins really are three-dimensional objects, after all. If you have the opportunity to take an ANA introductory grading course, do so, particularly if you anticipate spending real money. In the meantime, remember that there is no Santa Claus in the business end of this hobby. Buying raw coins is nothing but a recipe for trouble if you don't know how to grade what you're buying. Stick with already graded coins for the time being. >>



    You hit many important points. Well said.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've taken the ANA grading course, looked at lots of coins and still pretty much only buy certified coins. image

    Nice to see Don back. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you buy relatively inexpensive raw coins of various types, send them for grading, and they all come back in Genuine holders, you now have an outstanding reference for what cleaned, altered surfaces, scratched, whizzed, environmental damage, look like. I suppose one could even go as far as to put together "problem sets", much as one may put together a grading set, and market them as learning tools. When life gives you lemons, make whiskey sours!
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've thought PCGS wrong and been wrong, and I still think some grades were wrong...

    unfortunately, if they are damaged coins it is not just the "one point off effect."


    How would it make me feel to get genuined? Probably similar to above, but the best way to deal with it is to post some pictures and get some opinions if you are doing something wrong.
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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been collector for over 50 years, and was a full time dealer for 12 years. One thing I learned during those periods is that a REALLY good 10X glass is an essential tool when you are buying coins. A 10X is too much for assigning a grade to a coin, but what it does do for you is to provide a close-up view of a coin's surface to see if it has been brushed or cleaned with the tell-tale hairlines showing.

    As for buying raw coins, it's my view that a lot of what dealers offer at a bourse is raw for a reason, and those reasons are not to your advantage. The only coins that I would buy raw where what appeared to be "fresh" material that came from a collector or from an "old time" dealer who bought coins through his shop. Even then I went over every piece very carefully. Most of the stuff in the books was problem material that would not grade. Most of it had been cleaned or worse.

    I agree with those who advise you to buy coins in the holders that you want, and not get involved with buying raw coins that have graded yourself. The chances of buying problem material are too great, if you are not an expert grader who knows how to spot problems.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • michiganboymichiganboy Posts: 1,246 ✭✭
    I think for the learning aspect of this for the OP it would be important to give us some details on your submission and post some pics of the coins. As far as the details part of a grade it really depends on the coin on how I feel.
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  • << <i>"Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>

    Depends on the coin.

    Suppose you have a coin in a 63 holder that you're so sure is undergraded that you crack it out and resubmit it raw and it comes back BB'd for hairlines. How does that make you feel?

    Suppose, after showing that coin to half a dozen different people and none of them can see a hint of a hairline, you decide to crack it out again and send it to a different grading service. And it comes back BB'd for questionable color. How does that make you feel?

    Suppose you next show that coin to several more people, none of whom have any issue with the color and you decide to crack it out yet again and send it to the original grading sevice. And it comes back in a 65 holder. How does that make you feel?

    Which grade is right?
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>"Details" grades, how does this make you feel? >>

    Depends on the coin.

    Suppose you have a coin in a 63 holder that you're so sure is undergraded that you crack it out and resubmit it raw and it comes back BB'd for hairlines. How does that make you feel?

    Suppose, after showing that coin to half a dozen different people and none of them can see a hint of a hairline, you decide to crack it out again and send it to a different grading service. And it comes back BB'd for questionable color. How does that make you feel?

    Suppose you next show that coin to several more people, none of whom have any issue with the color and you decide to crack it out yet again and send it to the original grading sevice. And it comes back in a 65 holder. How does that make you feel?

    Which grade is right? >>



    Is this a hypothetical scenario?


    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • No.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No. >>



    Wow! I'd like to see a pic of this coin.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Of course I would hate buying coins raw
    only to find out later they detailed.

    Did you pay a meaningful discounted price
    from the grade you thought they were if slabbef?

    I buy coins raw frequently (world) and have
    similar experiences as you have had.

    But I have also hit some home runs.
    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




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