How to make $1897.50 (you will be offended)

g048406

On Aug 12, 2011 the following coin was sold for $1,840.00:
1839-C $2 1/2 -- Obverse Rim Damage, Cleaned -- NGC Details. AU. Breen-6150, Winter-2, Variety-22, R.4....
1839-C $2 1/2 -- Obverse Rim Damage, Cleaned -- NGC Details. AU.

On Feb 3, 2012 the SAME EXACT COIN, but, the 'rim damage' notation was removed by NGC sold for $3737.50:
1839-C $2 1/2 -- Improperly Cleaned -- NGC Details. AU. Breen-6150, Winter-2, Variety-22, R.4....
1839-C $2 1/2 -- Improperly Cleaned -- NGC Details. AU

That 'rim damage' is major.
Now how do feel about NGC?

Moldnut

Kind of like the missing notation on the PCGS coin from this threadlink

123cents

I say "Let the buyer beware." If you can't see the rim damage with or without the notation something is wrong with your eyes.

DHeath

The obverse rim is crimped at 4 o'clock.

The description suggests the damage should have been obvious to the buyer.

Constantine

I am not offended.

braddick

Surprisingly, neither am I.

steveben

this is a great example of why you need to have a basic level of coin grading skills along with knowledge of what's market acceptable, etc. otherwise, you lose. i'm not claiming to have never made the same type of mistakes...because i have, but i learned from them. learn to recognize a problem coin and stay away from it. patience is a virtue. the right coin will eventually come along.

g048406

<< <i>this is a great example of why you need to have a basic level of coin grading skills along with knowledge of what's market acceptable, etc. otherwise, you lose. i'm not claiming to have never made the same type of mistakes...because i have, but i learned from them. learn to recognize a problem coin and stay away from it. patience is a virtue. the right coin will eventually come along. >>



I'm sure the person that paid $3737.50 for that coin will be pretty pissed. The point is, why bother using NGC when they arbitrarily designate/not designate obvious problems?

braddick

<< <i>

<< <i>this is a great example of why you need to have a basic level of coin grading skills along with knowledge of what's market acceptable, etc. otherwise, you lose. i'm not claiming to have never made the same type of mistakes...because i have, but i learned from them. learn to recognize a problem coin and stay away from it. patience is a virtue. the right coin will eventually come along. >>



I'm sure the person that paid $3737.50 for that coin will be pretty pissed. The point is, why bother using NGC when they arbitrarily designate*/not designate obvious problems? >>




*You're using that word incorrectly.

keyman64

Before I clicked the link I thought the damage might be hidden by a prong but it wasn't. The damage is obvious. It is silly that it sold for so much IMO. To each their own.

Moldnut

<< <i>

<< <i>. The point is, why bother using NGC when they arbitrarily designate/not designate obvious problems? >>



I find this statement to be quite humorous to say the least.

g048406

It is obvious to anyone looking at this coin that it has major rim damage at 4 O'Clock. The coin was first sent to NGC and they noted the rim damage on the holder. This same coin was later sent back to NGC and this time they either missed the rim damage or they chose to ignore.
1. If a room of 'professional graders' missed the obvious rim damage, than they will probably miss other less obvious problems as well.
2. If they chose to ignore the rim damage, than they are incompetent at grading.

Res

Could it be a mechanical error?

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>the 'rim damage' notation was removed by NGC >>

First link id#:3318187-016
Second link id#: 3317659-007

Conclusion: Coin was cracked out and sumbitted again. NGC "removed" nothing.

<< <i>Now how do feel about NGC? >>

Same as before this post. How about you?

phnatacc

<< <i>It is obvious to anyone looking at this coin that it has major rim damage at 4 O'Clock. The coin was first sent to NGC and they noted the rim damage on the holder. This same coin was later sent back to NGC and this time they either missed the rim damage or they chose to ignore.
1. If a room of 'professional graders' missed the obvious rim damage, than they will probably miss other less obvious problems as well.
2. If they chose to ignore the rim damage, than they are incompetent at grading. >>



This thread should come with a warning....



This happens to every TPG.

1. You either have an axe to grind with that TPG which is unrelated to that coin. or...

2. You need to take a breath, then take another, then do your own research and accept and acknowledge that mistakes happen to every TPG.

zap1111

Gotta say I think it's a cool coin with those die cracks.

I guess their 2nd slabbing still offered enough warning that this coin isn't in original shape (so bid what you think you'd be comfortable with to get this particular date/minmark even though it's a problem coin).

stealer

The rim damage doesn't appear too severe in the picture.

LogPotato

I'm not offended, but I didn't spend 3K+ on a problem coin either.

coindeuce

I can't conceive of how I would be offended, unless I was an underbidder at the $1840 price, which may have been way under real market value, and I let it get away. The coin didn't change, only the attitudes of a subsequent audience did. It took at least two competitors to drive it to the new price level. It could be a possibility that in the short interim between offerings, several specialist collectors of the Classic Head quarter eagle series recognized that this variety may be extremely difficult to acquire in any condition, and this represented a unique opportunity.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

<< <i>

<< <i>this is a great example of why you need to have a basic level of coin grading skills along with knowledge of what's market acceptable, etc. otherwise, you lose. i'm not claiming to have never made the same type of mistakes...because i have, but i learned from them. learn to recognize a problem coin and stay away from it. patience is a virtue. the right coin will eventually come along. >>



I'm sure the person that paid $3737.50 for that coin will be pretty pissed. The point is, why bother using NGC when they arbitrarily designate/not designate obvious problems? >>



PCGS only designates one problem using their system, even if the coin has multiple issues.

SeattleSlammer

39-C ....... quite desirable even with the obvious damage ..... just more motivated buyers the second time around IMO

Kove

PCGS only lists one problem on a details grade, even if the coin has multiple issues. Sure NGC changed what they listed on the holder from one submission to the next. But what they list now is the same thing their main competition would list. It's hard to fault NGC for doing the same thing PCGS would do.

mkman123

I feel NGC is a excellent TPG. How do you feel about PCGS when they have made mistakes like this? They both make mistakes and I will continue to buy from both companies. Please don't have too much kool aid this saturday evening

Hussulo

PCGS only designates one problem using their system, even if the coin has multiple issues.

That's a very good point.

UncleJoe

The problem to me is one of consistency.

What changed? The problem was significant enough the first time to be mentioned on the slab but the second time it is now not significant enough to be mentioned on the slab?

Is this amount of damage sitting on the fence for NGC that the decision to mention or not mention the damage on the slab could go either way?

Joe.

Bruceswar

<< <i>The problem to me is one of consistency.

What changed? The problem was significant enough the first time to be mentioned on the slab but the second time it is now not significant enough to be mentioned on the slab?

Is this amount of damage sitting on the fence for NGC that the decision to mention or not mention the damage on the slab could go either way?

Joe. >>



And you think any TPG has been consistent over the years?? Lets get real. Every TPG has only been consistent at one thing... Being inconsistent.

TwoSides2aCoin

I'm not offended one bit ( 1 bit is equal to twelve and a half cents)
We're talking 15,180 bits of profit. That bit doesn't offend me either.
There are trillions of coins that a person can easily make 2 bits on.
No big deal to me. I am not offended. Someone is into it deeper than another person was.

roadrunner

The grading services are not 100% consistent, never have been and never will be. 60-80% consistency is about the best you'll ever get. Same with the very best graders.
I've had instances with both TPG's where the same damage was either missed or ignored on subsequent submissions. Believe it or not, I've even had cases where they
changed the grade on me!

ldhair

No big deal to me. It's still in a details holder.
This makes me think of coins with more problems than could be listed on the label.
One problem is enough to tell folks to slow down and study the coin.

lkeigwin

Why should opinions about NGC change? Because they didn't cite an obvious problem when bodybagging the coin for a more judgmental one?

A winning bidder who is surprised by that rim damage should move on to another hobby.
Lance.

johnny9434

<< <i>Surprisingly, neither am I. >>

neither am i

Coinosaurus

It goes both ways.

There was a coin on exhibit last week in Baltimore.

It was in a regular PCGS holder.

Next to the coin, was an insert from ATS describing the same coin as damaged.

I told the guy he was kind of thumbing his nose at the grading services, and he could not really disagree

All that said, our hosts here do make good their mistakes. In this particular case I don't think it will be requested, as the coin is "worth" more in its current plastic.

coinkat

not offended- not surprised

jerseycat101

<< <i>Now how do feel about NGC? >>