Goldberg auction do they use bait lots od rare coins?

YQQ · May 31, 2012 2:41AM

In the last 3, perhaps even 4 auctions they had one and the same lot listed :

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/goldberg-auctioneers/catalogue-id-2862240/lot-14121588

last 3 auctions it actually sold each time. I bid once up to 1600 and it sold for 2200.
next auction, there it was again.....
and again......
and again this last auction. except it did not sell this time. it was not even called although it was listed to be sold.
This is an extremely rare Canadian A/V variety. It is most likely as rare as the 1890 50 cent piece and is much in demand in ANY condition. the inverted A , acting as the V in Victoria could easily be seen. There is no mistake about it.
AND, for sure, they knew it , latest after , or even before the 1st time it was offered.
so my question is simple:
How come they were selling the exact same coin several times?
do you really believe that a rare coin was cosigned 4 times ( sold 3 times) with the same images, same starting price etc...
and, why was it not auctioned the last time?
personally I believe they used this variety as bait...

960Coins · May 31, 2012 2:55AM

2 of the 4 Brazilian 960 Reis auctioned this week were in, and appeared to have sold in, the previous auction as well. Neither one of them were anything very special or rare, and certainly not "bait".

DeiGratia · May 31, 2012 5:55AM

Can you expand upon your definition of "Bait"?

I'm not familiar with this tactic.

Thanks.

YQQ · May 31, 2012 11:56AM

ok, use a rare coin to draw attention to the overpriced other Canadian coins...
it is just much to suspicious ..
the coin is extremely rare , even when cleaned, in that condition.
Most collectors never get to hold one.
so why would a collector sell it ???
H

JCMhouston · May 31, 2012 12:29PM

Collectors sell coins all the time, otherwise dealers wouldn't have any inventory. It's not that uncommon for a coin to show up in multiple auctions due to an unrealistic reserve being set. In this particular case it obviously isn't as rare and much desired as you think, it's apparantly not even getting bid over the reserve.

Personally I don't believe they were using it as "bait", that is bordering on the most ludicrous thing I have heard recently. Do you really think Goldberg cares about a $2200 coin?

Dabigkahuna · May 31, 2012 5:33PM

Collectors sell coins all the time, otherwise dealers wouldn't have any inventory. It's not that uncommon for a coin to show up in multiple auctions due to an unrealistic reserve being set. In this particular case it obviously isn't as rare and much desired as you think, it's apparantly not even getting bid over the reserve. Personally I don't believe they were using it as "bait", that is bordering on the most ludicrous thing I have heard recently. Do you really think Goldberg cares about a $2200 coin?

harasha · May 31, 2012 7:25PM

I think YQQ is pointing out that the coin has appeared in consecutive auctions; the emphasis being on consecutive.
I too have noticed this phenomenon and have to wonder who actually is "winning" the lots in question. I would not refer to the coin as bait; probably a poor choice of term.

JCMhouston · May 31, 2012 10:50PM

The same thing happens with other auction companies also. For example Heritage has had an extremely rare, but impaired, British piece I have been watching in the past couple of auctions. I wondered about it also and talked to someone associated with the auction. The owner keeps putting up an unrealistically high reserve (and paying the buyback fee) and Heritage does it because they keep making money on the coin.

SYRACUSIAN · June 1, 2012 3:18AM

Jeff, I think that YQQ and harasha are on to something. YQQ specified that the coin "sold" in the 3 consecutive auctions. If it hadn't reached reserve, it would have appeared unsold, like at Heritage, when some of these lots are even offered for post auction purchases at the reserve price plus commission. I didn't even look which coin YQQ refers to, but I have also noticed a few lots in previous auctions by the same auction house, appearing as sold , and then the same lots reappeared in the auction after that. The only reasonable explanation for something like this, would have been that the winner did not honor his commitment and didn't pay for the lot, but how often can something like this happen?

YQQ · June 1, 2012 3:26AM

JCM,
it is not a 2000 dollar coin, but trends at 5,000.
then ask yourself why they start it very, extremely low.
ask yourself WHY they would not indicate in the description the Variety it is, as they do with many others. The marker confirming the Variety is very clearly visible
AND yes, an auctioneer will bump up his sales with any legal method (and some perhaps not so legal) he can apply.
Would you venture to give your opinion WHY it has not sold this time?
My opinion is that Goldberg owns the coin and they re-use it to draw attention ( it is one of the very scarce recognized varieties in Canadian coins.,
yes, collectors sell coins all the time. They sell coins they have double or really do not want.. or, in some cases because someone made them an offer they could not refuse.
But which serious collector would sell a rare coin over and over with the same auctioneer? The fees alone would be prohibitive.
anyway, everyone can have an opinion. Just thought it would make an interesting post to follow up on.
Did certainly not look for any heated discussions about it.
H

7Jaguars · June 1, 2012 5:24AM

This happened with at least one go-round win many of the Terner gold gold coins.

RobP · June 1, 2012 5:29AM

Perhaps it has something wrong with it and the seller(s) returned it.

6 years ago or around that time I won a Victoria shilling which when it arrived had been lacquered because the recesses of the date were clearly blocked with resin. There was no problem returning it, but it went into the next sale with the identical description (even with the previous sale's hammer price noted on the site image if I remember correctly). Another incident I remember from a Bonhams sale was a Pontefract shilling which didn't sell despite being very attractive. Alarm bells ring at this point as to why not. It reappeared in a subsequent sale with no image and an identical description, though this time with the footnote that it may (yeh, right) have been plugged. It then appeared on ebay not described as plugged and I was forced to warn someone clear of it after he had bid a few £Ks. However good the repair work, a plugged coin is just that.

Maybe the reserve was too high. I bid on a coin in a sale in 2007 that had an estimate of $4000-4500. At the time my upper bid was the underbid, but a day or two later the hammer price was dropped to my upper bid and I won the coin. Knowing the vendor had paid a minimum of nearly $8K based on a previous sale price for the same item plus whatever commission he was charged at the time, he clearly decided to take the hit and move on. In the UK the reserve is not allowed to be any higher than the estimate. Does the same apply to the US?

pruebas · June 1, 2012 9:48AM

<< <i>But which serious collector would sell a rare coin over and over with the same auctioneer? >>

Hesselgesser?

SYRACUSIAN · June 1, 2012 10:20PM

In the UK the reserve is not allowed to be any higher than the estimate. Does the same apply to the US?

Not sure how the estimate affects the starting bidding price in the UK, but in Germany and Switzerland, bidding starts at 80% of the estimate, which along with commissions and fees adds up to the same amount. So, the estimate is used as a reserve in these auctions. In the US I've seen the same method used by some auctioneers (notably the one we're talking about), especially on lots that are expected to sell with a single bid, but I've also seen no reserve auctions where the estimate does not affect at all the starting price (ex. Heritage). If there is a reserve, it is equal or lower than the estimate, but I can't tell you if there's any rule about this.

YQQ · June 2, 2012 2:23AM

Dimitri, you are so right.
Same also goes for British auctions. However, I recently took part in several auctions in Germany and Switzerland.
In G, they have the start right up to what they expect to get, or, perhaps slightly below. By the time you pay all their fees, you usually pay above going pricing. They also allow you to place bids at 90% of asking.
But the sad fact is: they do have their own incognito bidders in the crowd to bid up a coin should the need arise. we can never proof it, but people in the know always mention the possibility.
My German friend, a known high end coin collector there, does not bid himself anymore, as he had observed numerous times when he bids there is suddenly interest in bidding from others. he uses an agent now or a friend to bid for him.

Goldberg auction do they use bait lots od rare coins?

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