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Grades back from ATS
TwoKopeiki
Posts: 9,539 ✭✭✭✭✭
I have 2 cross-overs in PCGS for the new special and 2 other raw coins under express submission, but while I'm waiting for those - here are the results of sending coins PCGS body bagged in my previous thread to NGC.
1. 1780 was returned to its previous AU55 holder
2. I cracked out the 1801 PCGS graded XF45, gave it a quick dip to lighten the color slightly (3 seconds in a 10% solution) and it made it back into its original AU55 holder, as well.
3. 1816 went AU58 (PCGS gave it UNC details, but body bagged it for planchet defects)
4. 1820 Zacatecas received an MS61 grade. It used to be in NGC AU55 plastic before, PCGS bagged with AU details for cleaning I still can't see in-hand.
The Zacatecas piece going MS61 reminds me of the 1745 pillar I had, which was also a very nice AU in MS61 plastic. I have a hypothesis that NGC essentially market/net grades some coins UP to the level of a 61 (similar to how pieces are sometimes net graded down silently, without being body bagged). There are definitely points of friction on this coin. I wonder what would happen if I sent it back to NGC and asked to have it downgraded to AU58
The 2 cross-overs at PCGS I'm hoping will cross are the 1777 FF 8 Reales in AU and a very rare key date for the Ferdinand VII series - 1814/3 HJ - currently residing in NGC VF35 plastic. I'm hoping for at least a VF30 grade from PCGS.
I'll post the PCGS results once graded, sometime next week.
1. 1780 was returned to its previous AU55 holder
2. I cracked out the 1801 PCGS graded XF45, gave it a quick dip to lighten the color slightly (3 seconds in a 10% solution) and it made it back into its original AU55 holder, as well.
3. 1816 went AU58 (PCGS gave it UNC details, but body bagged it for planchet defects)
4. 1820 Zacatecas received an MS61 grade. It used to be in NGC AU55 plastic before, PCGS bagged with AU details for cleaning I still can't see in-hand.
The Zacatecas piece going MS61 reminds me of the 1745 pillar I had, which was also a very nice AU in MS61 plastic. I have a hypothesis that NGC essentially market/net grades some coins UP to the level of a 61 (similar to how pieces are sometimes net graded down silently, without being body bagged). There are definitely points of friction on this coin. I wonder what would happen if I sent it back to NGC and asked to have it downgraded to AU58
The 2 cross-overs at PCGS I'm hoping will cross are the 1777 FF 8 Reales in AU and a very rare key date for the Ferdinand VII series - 1814/3 HJ - currently residing in NGC VF35 plastic. I'm hoping for at least a VF30 grade from PCGS.
I'll post the PCGS results once graded, sometime next week.
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Comments
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
How is it that one day they get BB'd for cleaning and the next day get the grade at ~$75 a shot (plus shipping, etc.).? I think this is a tough job for the TPGs but certainly some leeway ought to be considered for 170 + year old coins.
Well, just Love coins, period.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I mean look at the time and effort spent here...not to forget the monies involved in grading these back and forth. BB'd here, graded down their, regraded and cracked just reading this journey and my brain is in a tizzy.
For the average Joe it makes no sense to go thru this cycle ...
This is different than math and science
Opinions are held to a standard that is not set in stone.
Most collectors do not seem to handle this concept well
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>While I agree that individual opinion can be biased and unpredictable, using multiple graders and averaging their opinions allows for a relatively predictable pattern with a relatively small margin of error. Collecting data and looking for patterns is what I do for a living and it's probably natural that i try to apply the same principles to my hobbies. I find consistencies and inconsistencies fascinating and play the grading game to pass the time and learn. >>
The minute I saw these regraded for the third time, I realized that this was your ultimate goal, and that you were willing to pay the price for that lesson. And like Zohar, I too am glad to see them back in higher grade holders, because the PCGS grades were very harsh.
When you mention averaging their opinions, keep in mind that at PCGS the coin is graded by three graders and gets the worst grade given by the three, not an average. The finalizer will rarely interfere in this. At least, that's what I've been told about the procedure in Paris. If anybody thinks I'm wrong or has more info on the subject, I would love to hear it.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
<< <i>
When you mention averaging their opinions, keep in mind that at PCGS the coin is graded by three graders and gets the worst grade given by the three, not an average. The finalizer will rarely interfere in this. At least, that's what I've been told about the procedure in Paris. If anybody thinks I'm wrong or has more info on the subject, I would love to hear it. >>
Hmm, the average was an assumption. In your scenario one grader with a hangover can bomb an entire line of submissions. I hope thats not the case. I wonder if customer service at PCGS would know the process.
8 Reales Madness Collection
You can watch the grading video here.
<< <i>I wonder if customer service at PCGS would know the process.
You can watch the grading video here. >>
"...The final step in the process is to assign a grade to the coin in question. Graders are now focusing on the characteristics of your coin, such as the strike, amount of marks, luster, quality of toning, and overall eye appeal. Once grader #1 has completed grading your order, the order is re-distributed to a second grader. The graders do not see the opinion of the other graders on any of the coins within an order until after they have entered their grade into the computer. If the opinion of the first two graders does not match, your coin will be assigned to a third grader to break the tie..."
They don't go into much more detail than that, which doesn't really answer the process question.
8 Reales Madness Collection
I will relate that an acquaintance of mine submitted an early 20th C. coin to one of them, got an AU58 & sent it back. It came in its original holder and it came back a 63. Uggh...
Also, I need not go into the problematic grading of matte proofs of the 20th C. I have seen 61 coins that are quite literally as good as 66 coins from the same service for the same date and denomination, and I am not just hinting, I am saying I feel amply qualified for these type coins and possibly have seen as any many as anybody save perhaps key personnel at Baldwin's.
Well, celebrate when they come back as you like or better, and try not to grumble when your coins stumble at the numbers game.
As a final PS to Two Kopeiki: I fear that if its science you are looking for, perhaps best to look into other venues...
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>Well, I do love our hosts and have 15 coins out for grading with them right now. However......I many times disagree with the major TPGs not just on my coins but such coins as many in the Millennium collections, and others where I wonder if all the variables such as source, etc. were independent - if you follow my drift, sometimes high and sometimes low with two numerical grade swings not uncommon.
I will relate that an acquaintance of mine submitted an early 20th C. coin to one of them, got an AU58 & sent it back. It came in its original holder and it came back a 63. Uggh...
Also, I need not go into the problematic grading of matte proofs of the 20th C. I have seen 61 coins that are quite literally as good as 66 coins from the same service for the same date and denomination, and I am not just hinting, I am saying I feel amply qualified for these type coins and possibly have seen as any many as anybody save perhaps key personnel at Baldwin's.
Well, celebrate when they come back as you like or better, and try not to grumble when your coins stumble at the numbers game.
As a final PS to Two Kopeiki: I fear that if its science you are looking for, perhaps best to look into other venues... >>
I Agree!
Now alot of what you do, did and present makes more sense. Like I said the average Joe would never be able to keep up without losing lots of money, time and sleep in the quest for loftier levels.
It is "unfortunately" not the David Hall grading service!?!?! While I do have input on oveall policy, and sometimes the individual grade of ultra rarities (when they ask my opinion), the final PCGS grade is always a consensus opinion. I usually agree wih the PCGS final grade but sometimes I don't. When I do disagree, I am sometimes right and sometimes wrong. But that's how it goes when it comes to grading coins. Even the best experts are sometimes "wrong", even when they fail to admit it. hrh
And at the end it is just for the almighty buck / Value!!!, or for bragging rights perhaps.
remember, it is only an opinion that is offered... NOT a hard statement of fact.
If it was a fact, there would need to be a solid and uniform norm, perhaps backed up by a law, and every TPG would have to follow. It would most certainly put some out of business..(centsles would be the first to go...)
it always puzzles me that someone can make a distinction between MS 66; MS 67 and MS68 or Ms69. Or a AU55 and an AU58..