1916 DDO BUFF - Early die state? CONECA Opinions Welcome

golddustin

While reading thru the latest Heritage auction catalog, I saw the full page description of the 1916 DDO Buffalo nickel. That reminded me that somewhere I had a Whitman Classic album of Buffs that I had not looked at in years....most had been picked over by dealers when I decided to give up trying to put together a low end BU (MS60-63) set.
Upon locating and looking at what remained in the album - voila! There was a MS 1916 coin remaining. When I looked at it under a loupe, it definitely showed the doubling, just not as wide as most examples that I looked at in Heritage archives. However, in reading the Heritage write up, they bring up some interesting points on the unusual & inexplicable nature of this particular DDO.
This coin, while not have the usually wide spread on the '6' to the southeast, does have noticeable doubling on both of the '1's in the date, as well as obvious doubling of all the letters of 'Liberty' - which is not normally seen, at least according to the Heritage cataloger. It also does show some doubling of the '6', just not very wide.
I'm wondering if this could be a different variety of DDO, or simply an early state example. The fact that the coin is mint-state, and Heritage states that they are rare in AU, as well as the doubling of the letters (which, according to Heritage should be expected, since it is 180* from the date) makes me think that this is possibly a different variety?
The picture below needs to be enlarged to show better detail - when I open it with 'paint' and magnify it, the details are easy to see. Granted, the doubling is not extremely wide, but it is definitely noticeable.

Any opinions would be appreciated!

Take a look & let me know -

If you can't open that image with 'paint' - try this one -

2nd image

EagleEye

You might be confusing a doubled die with strike doubling.

seanq

That is definitely not the big doubled die, changes in die state will not change the degree of doubling, since the design elements are in the face of the die and won 't change no matter how long the die is used. I don't see anything in either photo to indicate your coin is a different doubled die, for the amount and degree of doubling you're describing you would need to post much bigger pictures or close-ups.


Sean Reynolds

DCW

An early does state would only produce more crisp and distinct doubling. If you had the real deal, it would match exactly the pictures you've seen.
Sorry, but your coin is just a nice, but normal 1916.

cmerlo1

Rule #1 for variety attribution: If it doesn't match the photo exactly, it isn't. If you have to use your imagination or look at it at a certain angle and then maybe it is, it isn't.

Yukoncornelius1

On the big DDO nickel you not only see a big spread on the date you also see doubling on the feathers and ribbon, your coin has none of the features.

golddustin

OK - It took me awhile to figure out to get the enlarged image posted, but this should work. As far as the type of die doubling that occured on this coin, I think the Heritage catalogue explains the confusion better than I ever could. They simply say that due to the nature of the variety, nobody has been able to go back & 'recreate' or determine just what type of doubling caused the error. They mention rotated hub & 'hub-doubling' as possiblities, but neither makes complete sense.....

Anyway here are the photos, and if you can't see the doubling of the letters, your eyes are even worse than mine! Also, note that the first number '1' has moved southeast, as has the second number '1' and the '6' - again, just not as much as seen on most examples. But most examples don't show any doubling of 'Liberty'



liberty

date

seanq

That is strike doubling, it happens when the die is loose and shifts as it releases from the planchet after the strike. In general it is not worth any premium. The flatness of the doubling is the give-away, for a true doubled die you will see notching and separation of the design elements.


Sean Reynolds


P.S.: Can you link to the Heritage description that says the 1916 DDO is somehow unexplained, it's actually perfectly understood and described as class 5 (pivoted hub) doubling.

coinkid855

Not even close to a doubled die, sorry. It appears you need new glasses, not us. Lol


-Paul

golddustin

Not to belabor the point, but when visiting the CONECA website, and reading the latest edition of the CPG, they both allow for additional varieties of varieties - the CPG has a new numbering system so that they can add an infinite amount of different varieties to a particular error.

I know the coin doesn't show the typical doubling of the feathers & ribbons, as well as the date - but none of the examples that I have seen show any doubling of liberty, which is evident on this coin. There is certainly something going on with the obverse of the coin, and since it has documented varieties, I feel it is worth the effort to see what the folks at CONECA think. If they say no, so be it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

golddustin

Sean -
Here the auction page. Thanks.

Heritage

coinkid855

<< <i>Not to belabor the point, but when visiting the CONECA website, and reading the latest edition of the CPG, they both allow for additional varieties of varieties - the CPG has a new numbering system so that they can add an infinite amount of different varieties to a particular error.

I know the coin doesn't show the typical doubling of the feathers & ribbons, as well as the date - but none of the examples that I have seen show any doubling of liberty, which is evident on this coin. There is certainly something going on with the obverse of the coin, and since it has documented varieties, I feel it is worth the effort to see what the folks at CONECA think. If they say no, so be it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. >>



You can send it in, but Mr. Reynolds knows his stuff. I completely agree with him that it's strike doubling. If you don't like our opinions send it in for them to confirm our thoughts.


-Paul

seanq

The Cherrypickers Guide also has a big section with pictures explaining the differences between hub doubling and strike doubling. If you look at that part of the book, I think you will recognize your coin is not a doubled die. I used to oversee the attribution services at CONECA so I have an idea what I'm talking about. If you want to spend the money and tie the coin up for a couple of months by sending it in for a review, feel free, but you will be just as dissatisfied with their answer as you seem to be with the Forum's.


Sean Reynolds

golddustin

OK - 'Nuff said. That's why I like to run things by the forum before taking any further action. It was the information that Heritage provided that led me to think that this was possibly a different type of die error.

PS - Paul, if you really can't see any doubling on liberty, you should see the optometrist!

Thanks Fellas!

seanq

<< <i>Sean -
Here the auction page. Thanks.

Heritage >>




Thank you, the Heritage cataloger mentions the pivoted hub doubling and then how CONECA is moving away from attributing doubled dies by the source of the doubling. It looks like you also picked up on this passage:



<< <i> What is more difficult to explain, however: On the doubled date, the first 1 is barely visible, with only part of its top showing. Each successive digit shows more detail toward the bottom, with the last 6 nearly complete on the bottom loop.
What happened to cause this phenomenon? The second hub blow appears to have been a glancing one, with planar misalignment between hub and the die it was striking. It is not only the extreme elusiveness of this variety, but its extreme oddness as well, that contributes to its appeal. >>



The person who wrote that assumes the face of the unhubbed die is perfectly flat; in fact it is typically domes slightly so the elements near the center of the die are hubbed first. There are similar threads recently discussing the 1876-CC Trade Dollar DDR and the 1873 w/arrows dime DDO where the doubling is confined to the central design elements. In this case the first impression from the hub was incomplete and only the parts of the date nearest the center of the coin were impressed. The initial hubbing was also weak enough that subsequent impressions obliterated most of the evidence of doubling on the central design elements.


Sean Reynolds

keets

hey, let's be nice to Chuck. at the price for the DDO i think we'd all be willing to stretch towards the hopeful side of things, at least i know i would!! but i agree with the Strike Doubling assessment. Geez, i was hoping maybe for a free lunch if you scored.

BUFFNIXX

Any doubling you see on this coin is common machine doubling and many confuse machine doubling with a double(d) die. This is not to say that there is NOT a second 1916 doubled die obverse buff grazing about in buffaloworld somewhere, unloved and unidentified. I try to keep an open mind.

golddustin

Al, you hit the nail on the head. When I saw the prices for the '16 DDO Buffs, it had me wondering "What if?"....... I could plainly see doubling, and Heritage's description leaves an awful lot open for interpretation. In the meantime, I applied for membership on the CONECA forums, and while waiting for the go ahead, posted the coin here, knowing that many CONECA members are over here as well.

It got me a little excited, but I had strong doubts that it could possibly be an actual DDO. But it never hurts to hear it from the experts. (Well, it hurts a little bit )

Heck, you would have been one of the newest John Prine groupies on the tour!

Thanks to all, anyway.

coinkid855

<< <i>OK - 'Nuff said. That's why I like to run things by the forum before taking any further action. It was the information that Heritage provided that led me to think that this was possibly a different type of die error.

PS - Paul, if you really can't see any doubling on liberty, you should see the optometrist!

Thanks Fellas! >>




You're trying to tell us that an EDS of this variety...







...shows almost no doubling. Your doubling is simply a bit of strike doubling, that's it. You don't have to tell me I need to go get glasses, when your opinion is clearly contrary to everyone else on the board.



-Paul

bigtonydallas

GOLDDUSTIN,
Dont give up. You may catch the variety bug anyway and I too though early in my search that some of the coins I had were new double dies. When you cherry your first true double die, it will be very clear to you. You might also buy an attributed middle of the road double die for reference. A good one would be a 1995 DDO Lincoln. They are reasonable in price and you could compare it to any pictures of the coin and see that it is exactly like the pictures. Sometimes die errosion will cause doubled images as I had an early lincoln with major die errosion on the reverse and the E Pluribus Unum had a ghost image half the heigth of the letters to the north. But it was just die errosion.

DIMEMAN

Definitely strike doubling.

koynekwest

Die state has nothing to do with the spread of the doubling-it has everything to do with the CLARITY of the doubling. On doubled dies, the earlier the better. The difference can be dramatic between an EDS coin and a LDS coin-the 1995 1-O-V cent is a classic example.

goose3

PCGS G6 I used to own.

koynekwest

Incidentally, the 1916 DDO Buff comes in two distinct die stages-one with additional machine doubling and one without.