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Premium to be paid for the added value of the "wow"factor
TahoeDale
Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭
Legend's latest market report discusses the lack of the reported or printed pricing for
the value to be added or paid for the really nice coins in the market.
Other than auction prices realized.
I agree. Even though we have + pricing at PCGS, NGC still has no values for + or *.
CDN is wholesale or less, Coin World trends makes no reference, and I know or no
other good historical basis for what to pay for special coins, especially those that
have not traded for years.
CAC has no pricing info in print, and makes a market( unknown as to price) in only certain coins.
And the range for some coins is amazing!!
Take the FH dollar in AU 58-- a recent review of prices realized at auction shows sales between 25,000
and 86,000. For the same grade by the same TPG service. And their guides are 45,000 and 48,000(+).
No wonder a new person to the coin scene may be confused, and totally unaware of what to pay.
Several years ago, in conjunction with another Lib nickel collector, I put together a pricing guide
for fully struck and pq MS Lib nickels in grades 65, 66, and 67. While that may be out of date today,
it put in print what no other publication told us. And it worked at the time.
So Laura, in your free time, why don't you give us your experience and expertise in pricing the wow coins, with a
survey addition to your market reports.
the value to be added or paid for the really nice coins in the market.
Other than auction prices realized.
I agree. Even though we have + pricing at PCGS, NGC still has no values for + or *.
CDN is wholesale or less, Coin World trends makes no reference, and I know or no
other good historical basis for what to pay for special coins, especially those that
have not traded for years.
CAC has no pricing info in print, and makes a market( unknown as to price) in only certain coins.
And the range for some coins is amazing!!
Take the FH dollar in AU 58-- a recent review of prices realized at auction shows sales between 25,000
and 86,000. For the same grade by the same TPG service. And their guides are 45,000 and 48,000(+).
No wonder a new person to the coin scene may be confused, and totally unaware of what to pay.
Several years ago, in conjunction with another Lib nickel collector, I put together a pricing guide
for fully struck and pq MS Lib nickels in grades 65, 66, and 67. While that may be out of date today,
it put in print what no other publication told us. And it worked at the time.
So Laura, in your free time, why don't you give us your experience and expertise in pricing the wow coins, with a
survey addition to your market reports.
TahoeDale
0
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You (or your rep) must actually physically see these coins, in addition to knowing how to distinguish what is truly an outstanding specimen for the grade.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
The person who purchased it from me agreed that this coin did deserve a significant "wow" premium.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I don't know why anyone would go to all that work and just give it away.
Exactly. If she went to that kind of effort, the insights gained would remain in the house, not publicized for the benefit of others (especially competitors).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I think that the problem here is the impossibility of quantifying that which cannot be quantified.
Judging the "bling" factor is an emotional, visceral, right brained response. It stems form the collector element of the collector/investor duality. How can one guarantee consistency of this feeling from person to person, or worse, from one time period to another? 30 years ago, many of our beloved nicely toned CBHs were destroyed by well meaning dealers/collectors who simply valued bright white cbhs--anathema to us, but our attitude would likely have been viewed as anathema to them. And who can say that the pendulum won't swing back the other way over the next 20-30 years?
Interestingly, this phenomenon is not germane to only the numismatic world. I was fascinated a couple of years ago when the dress that Marilyn Monroe wore when she sang "Happy Birthday" to JFK was auctioned off. (It realized over 200k, if I recall). But someone had to ask, "what size was Ms. Monroe? The answer was 16!!!! Admittedly, the sizes have be shifted down one notch by the designers since then to make the ladies feel better, but 14?!?!?! Needless to say, the sexual icon of the mid 20th century would not be given the time of day today. Nor would the Rubenesque figures of the 1600's have gained any positive attention during Ms. Monroe's day.
But back to coins, without a consistent method to quantify, I don't see any way to provide a consistent price structure.
You are familiar with the one coin that I paid what I freely admit was stupid money for--essentially full 65 money for a 64. But it never really bothers me, at least not my collector side. As for the investor side, well, I may even lose money on it one day, but I'll still have the intangible gain of owning a cbh in the top 0.001% in terms of eye appeal, if not in grade.
Steve
equates to 160-180 lbs. MM was never of that size. Maybe she'd be in the size 4-8 range today. And early MM would also be much different than 35 yr old MM.
My wife tells me at 16 she was skinny as a rail (<100 lbs) and in a size 10 dress back in the early 1970's. Today she figures that would equate to a size 2. MM was
purported to be 117 lbs at 65.5" and a size 12 dress shortly before her passing.
There's never been an easy way to quantify PQ coins, esp. since the grading scale is continuous and not a step function as the TPG's would have most believe. It's been
this way since MS grading was heavily introduced in the 1970's. And even with identical + signs on similar coins, one could be a 65.7 and the other a 65.9, which could
equate to a huge difference in price if there were no 66's out there. We all just have to realize that accurate pricing is just as hard as accurate grading. We really don't
have either due to numerous factors. The wow factor is also dependent on the currently assigned grade....at least that's what the top 5% buyers tell us.
For the "wow" factor I just consult Darrell from Storage Hunters.
<< <i>I thought this had the so-called WOW factor, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, to me though it did:
and this one:
granted for different reasons but then when personal tastes seem to determine the so-called WOW factor would woul dyou expect..................a moving target imho, valid yes but always shifting just the same >>
Realone,
Those are gorgeous. But to the point--how gorgeous? And how to translate the "gorgeousness" factor into a consistent price structure?
Can't be done
<< <i>very unlikely that MM would be a size 16 today. They've lopped a lot of numbers off dress sizes in the past 45 yrs. A size 16 today for a 64" tall woman probably
equates to 160-180 lbs. MM was never of that poundage. Maybe she'd be in the size 6-10 range today. And early MM would also be much different than 35 yr old MM.
My wife tells me at 16 she was skinny as a rail (<100 lbs) and in a size 10 dress back in the early 1970's. Today she figures that would equate to a size 2.
There's never been an easy way to quantify PQ coins, esp. since the grading scale is continuous and not a step function as the TPG's would have most believe. It's been
this way since MS grading was heavily introduced in the 1970's. And even with identical + signs on similar coins, one could be a 65.7 and the other a 65.9, which could
equate to a huge difference in price if there were no 66's out there. We all just have to realize that accurate pricing is just as hard as accurate grading. We really don't
have either due to numerous factors.
For the "wow" factor I just consult Darrell from Storage Hunters.
<< <i>
RR,
Okay, mea culpa. I don't claim to be a historian of women's fashion, but the overall point was that women of the Monroe era (Rita Hayworth, Jayne Mansfield, Jane Russel, etc.) had major hourglass curves that are relatively absent from the sexual icons of today. Sure, some women of that era did not (Myrna Loy, Katherine Hepburn, for example), but they were never hailed as pin up girls.
But to keep it coin related: tastes change; aesthetics are personal, emotional, and variable, and therefore, defy consistent quantification.
buying and selling "wow"coins to give us a printed guide book, on every coin in a series.
But examples of real life sales would be helpful. ( See OP re a survey addition to the market report).
Commems that are wildly toned vs white ones in the same grade. selling at 10X guides
Early dollars, like the recent 1795 draped bust in PC 65 with fab colors.
MS 64 CBH's that trade for 65 money- like the 1824/var that scooby-deaux related.
The 1885 lib nickel in MS 67 nickel that sold for 90K.
Such listing, with images, could surely promote more offers to Legend, and bring
in more coins. And make it easier for buyers to understand why a particular coin
has such an inflated price.
GrandAm
Maybe 65 money is not enough!!
65+? 65 with a green CAC? gold CAC? +/green, +/gold?
How would we quantify the premium?
i think that is an imprtant point, but the point as well.
A person with little knowledge in the coin world who just buys blindly not knowing what they are buying is just foolish.
For those that know how tough it is to find a nice FH dollar in 58 will be much more willing to spend the 80k+ amount because they know how hard it is to find.
At the end of the day, a coin sale is the aggreement of two people- ne deciding how much he would pay and the other deciding what he would sell for.
If you know you have the nicest 58 FH dollar you surely arent going to sell it for 40k. Your going to want 80k+. (seller)
If you are looking for the nicest 58 fh dollar you know your not going to be able to get it for 40k and are going to have to step up for the "wow" factor to get it. The only question for the buyer is how much is he willing to step up
I've sold a few WOW coins over the years and have eventually regreted every one - the price I would pay to reacquire them is way over any price guide or auction price realized.
That experience has taught me to hang on tightly to the ones I still own.
It has been off the market for 8 years....I purchased it at the 2004 Portand Oregon spring ANA...
It is a Jack Lee speciman and the only CAC certifed coin in 66 from either TPG service!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It looked fully original to me with loads of luster.....
I believe it was cac'ed.
I held it hand and they priced it to me for 65k....
I told them I would seriously consider it.....
I came by first thing the next morning to buy it and was told it had been sold a few miniutes after I had seen the previous evening for 60k to a dealer
who had a customer for it....
I was heartbroken....
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The example of the FH dollar in AU 58 that might trade for over 75K today is a prime
example of why Laura's words should be taken seriously. The guides are way behind for one that is even graded +, and with a sticker.
The hard part is to pay up, with confidence that you are getting value, In the face of guides that say 40,000.
A generic CBH in PC 63 recently sold at FUN, for 20% over 64 money. So it doesn't have to be an expensive or rare date to get the large premium.
I recently received 30% over guides for an 1807 half in PC 64. And the price was just under 65 money.
We probably cannot say how big a premium to pay. But we know that both auction prices( for infrequently traded coins) or any printed guides are
way too low, for the right coins. DH and Don Willis have pointed out for us, several times, how much more many + coins are bringing-- over the printed page.
But I've always thought that the coin grading services could assign a separate eye-appeal grade by concensus. Maybe only for certain coin categories. I think it could be done just by having their three graders give a grade on a scale of 1 to 10 and then just listing the average of all three grades. Seems like CAC could do this too as a value added service...the bean would also have the eye appeal number printed on it.
<< <i>No wonder a new person to the coin scene may be confused, and totally unaware of what to pay. >>
A "a new person to the coin scene" should probably not start out buying coins in the mid 5 figures.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Still don't know if there's an answer Dale, but have enjoyed thinking about it and the replies so far.
I've sold a few WOW coins over the years and have eventually regreted every one - the price I would pay to reacquire them is way over any price guide or auction price realized.
That experience has taught me to hang on tightly to the ones I still own.
Very insightful advice