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Cloroxed coin goes to the "people's court"-1799 dollar

rec78rec78 Posts: 5,675 ✭✭✭✭✭
Many years ago ('bout 40) I experimented with clorox toning. Clorox can cause instant toning on a silver coin. You cant see the coin very well in the video but I can see it well enough-It appears to have been messed with. Stack's offered her $800 for this coin? And I am sure Jules heard of the term before even though he denies it. 1795 dollar on the people's court

It is a 1799.
Bob
image
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Comments

  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    whuttt a hoot....clorox'n is new to me too
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • jedmjedm Posts: 2,920 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He refers to PCGS as "Pacific Coast Grading"....that's interesting.
  • Clorox? Wouldnt that be just damage?
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    George Washington?!?!? really?!?!?!

    Barack Obama bought a burger with my pocket change!
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  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    we've got to be careful and not break the rules, but
    1. Pacific Coast Grading Company ?? I wonder about that guy.
    on the other hand,
    2. a business card with a number on it is meaningless. That could have been the price for any coin.


    3. I would have taken the note on the fax a little more seriously.


    In the end, if she really thought it was AT she needed a grading company's opinion instead of an auction house's opinion.



    Why has Taco Bell toning talk supplanted clorox toning here? Who here recalls the term "cloroxed?"


    PS I've got to try it tomorrow on some junk silver
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • rec78rec78 Posts: 5,675 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Jules I believe also said he was one of pcgs' founding partners yet couldn't state what the letters PCGS stood for. >>



    If i remember correctly- The original name was Pacific Coast Grading Service and changed later. I could be wrong on this.

    I have heard of Jules Karp but never did any business with him.


    "PS I've got to try it tomorrow on some junk silver"


    MsMorrisine . The toning is instant and you can get almost any color- Thoroughly rinse the coin immediately after application. I cannot tell if the coin in the video was cloroxed or something else was done with it.
    image
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,881 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe he might have passed away in 2010, maybe someone here knows for sure. >>

    May 2010
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  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow.........Ok, I have to ask. Who is the lady in the Rascal? He busts into the courtroom and swings the doors open like Boss Hog and they close on the lady in the scooter. She then jettisons into the courtroom and blows right by him.........I took it for granted that he knew her because she entered directly behind him. Now I'm not sure. I need to know. I need closure. Curse you rec78. MJ
    Walker Proof Digital Album
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  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Clorox? Wouldnt that be just damage? >>



    Clorox will just turn silver purple... The practice of using potassium chloride to give pre 1840 Flowing, Draped, and Bust coinage a deep gray black patina was started era's ago. You can see such examples on the browse floor in TPG holders and if you thoroughly inspect non field areas such as the crevices on the stars you'll see the chemical etching.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • morgansforevermorgansforever Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Love how the judge is rubbing it with her fingers.
    What's up with Pacific Coast Grading Service? 40 years in the biz original memeber of PCGS and NGC
    and doesn't know what PCGS stands for?
    Professional Coin Grading Service is the way I understand it.
    World coins FSHO Hundreds of successful BST transactions U.S. coins FSHO
  • Fun video
  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,366 ✭✭✭✭
    4 and a half years??

    She was very unprepared for the case. If PCGS slabbed it genuine with altered surfaces that would have helped big time.
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
    PCGS Registries
    Box of 20
    SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
  • cucamongacoincucamongacoin Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭
    Clorox will just turn silver purple... The practice of using potassium chloride to give pre 1840 Flowing, Draped, and Bust coinage a deep gray black patina was started era's ago. You can see such examples on the browse floor in TPG holders and if you thoroughly inspect non field areas such as the crevices on the stars you'll see the chemical etching.


    Can this effect be reversed?
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  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    way too much for the Judge to understand and form an educated opinion, but the Dealer is by all appearances a fraud. the worst thing he did during the "Trial" was to talk.
  • DoubleEagle59DoubleEagle59 Posts: 8,174 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the dealer worried about?

    The customer and the judge touching the coin with their fingers should void any return?

    Haven't these people even heard of a 2x2??
    "Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)

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  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So right ... pretty amazing how the judge keeps rubbing her thumb over the coin ... adding a bit of additional wear and thumbprints to the coin's problems.

    I think the buyer is clearly the case of someone with more money than knowledge.

    If she had done any sort of due dilligence she would have bought a 1795 Silver Dollar already slabbed by PCGS.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I purchased a coin from a board member once. I remember asking him in PMs if he knew what bleach did to a coin. He never did answer me back. Fortunately it was under a thousand dollars and the customer who bought it was easy enough to satisfy.

    No reputations were hurt in the making of this post.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Judge can only rule on evidence (or lack thereof) presented. There was no evidence. Cheers, RickO
  • Looks and sounds like coin collecting in the "old days" before slabbing, but actually she bought it in 2005.
  • cucamongacoincucamongacoin Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭
    What criteria is needed to search for a particular episode of People's Court? My Dad was on perhaps 25-30 years ago, and I never saw the episode. He is long gone now, and it would be nice to see that.
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  • ajmanajman Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
    lol on Pacific Coast Grading Company and on Don Rickles letting the doors slam into the lady on the scooter.
    Beer is Proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy -Benjamin Franklin-
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
    Pacific Coast Grading Company is located in Carlsbad, CA, just a couple of miles from my home. --Jerry
  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,366 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Pacific Coast Grading Company is located in Carlsbad, CA, just a couple of miles from my home. --Jerry >>



    I don't think they grade coins though image
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
    PCGS Registries
    Box of 20
    SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I used to view J.K.'s ads in the hobby publications that offered raw classic gold type at too-good-to-be-true prices and just chuckle. The subliminal message was deafening.

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
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  • KaelasdadKaelasdad Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭
    I wouldnt buy a coin from this guy, "I know eveyone, I know nuttin"
  • 123cents123cents Posts: 7,178 ✭✭✭
    Saying a coin has been cloroxed after 4+ years looks pretty weak to me. She could have altered the coin just as easy as the dealer and then tried to recover her loses. Who knows after that length of time.
    image
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    this is the problem with an "opinion" every one has one. if she sends it in 10 times, it may slab
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    anyone else pick up on stack's offer of 800$ ?? seems a bit light for a coin like that.....
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • pocketpiececommemspocketpiececommems Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm trying to sort this one out. Both parties looked like dupes to me. But don't they both get paid for being on the show to start with. I don't care for the dealers attitude but his answer to if he will still pay $3,800 for the coin is correct. He would have to look at it again and as many people were handling it it the grade would change. Where's the bb if she did send it in?
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    as i understand it, she didnt send it in, heritage declared that it wouldnt grade because it was cloroxed.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    the most disheartening part of this thread is that i watched a few more of the court cases, it becomes apparent that the majority of people are just plain STOOPID
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • I think it was nice that the dealer managed to wear a shirt without mustard stains for his big day in court.

    Thanks for the video, it was neat to watch.

    In all seriousness, most people don't know how to argue or present a coherent explanation of things.

    All she had to do was point out that coins, like other collectibles, are governed by the ethic of disclosure. The coin was sold as original and subsequently she found out that it had been altered. The dealer didn't disclose the alteration at the time of sale, therefore she has a case for damages due to diminished value. She should have brought written opinions from a couple of dealers to that effect, and think she could have won on those grounds.

    It would be no different if say an antique dealer sold a 17th century cabinet for full retail, and failed to mention that the original surface had been stripped and refinished. If the buyer found that out later, and had expert opinions to that effect, then he would have a strong case for damages, whether the original dealer knew about the refinishing or not.

    I felt bad for the lady, I think she had a real case against the dealer, but just didn't know how to present it in a way that the judge understood.
  • RollermanRollerman Posts: 1,840 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All the dealers in my "poo-dunk" area have heard of Cloroxing and I think a NY dealer would know also. Too bad the grade the coin sold at wasn't discussed, because it should have been a good investment at the higher grade the coin appeared to be..except for the alteration. She should have submitted it for grading and then the PCGS body bagging would have confirmed she was ripped in the initial transaction.
    I notice the judge had no doubt as to the dealers years in the business, his connection with the TPG's (though he might have just mis-spoke when he in correctly referred to PCGS as Pacific..etc.).
    I found the whole deal aggravating.
    Pete
    "Ain't None of Them play like him (Bix Beiderbecke) Yet."
    Louis Armstrong
  • List of the buyers mistakes:
    1. Purchased a coin for $5000 that is 'RAW' (any coins worth $5000 or more should only be purchased certified unless they are bullion)
    2. She didn't immediately take the 'RAW" coin to an expert
    3. She sued years later after any return policy would have expired (unless the coin was counterfeit.....which it wasn't)
    4. After all that time has passed, there is no way to know if the seller or buyer was the one that cloroxed the coin.

    One final note......I have heard of many types of cleaning, but, I have never heard of cloroxing a coin.
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    The coin was sold as original and subsequently she found out that it had been altered where did that part of the case go ? i didnt see where he represented it as original or otherwise.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,302 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There was no way to know (from the video) if the coin had been cloroxed, and even that was a known fact - there was no evidence to say who had done it or when. She had no case.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>What's the dealer worried about?

    The customer and the judge touching the coin with their fingers should void any return?

    Haven't these people even heard of a 2x2?? >>



    I believe it was handed to the judge in a plastic flip and she removed it.

    Interesting side point

    40 years in the business, and "what was the dealer worried about?"

    The dealer certainly didn't worry about the coin being handled improperly. Neither did she. Of course, she believed it had altered surfaces. Did he show no concern because he also knew???? image


    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭
    if anything it was a fun video to watch.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm no lawyer or judge. The plaintiff starts by saying she wanted to complete a set. Then at the 2:45 mark of the video she switches over from numismatics to bullion. I can see why she lost her case. And besides that, I haven't watched television for a few years and that made me feel dirty image

  • Thanks for the video. That was entertaining. It bothered me that the judge was handling the coin, but the video does show that the plaintiff handed the coin to the bailiff in a 2x2. The judge can be seen taking it out.

    What I think is funny though is when they interview all of the uninformed, un(numismatically)educated folks out in the street...they all have such definitive, passionate opinions. But of course they all have their JJE certification- judge, jury, and executioner.

    I hope I am never judged by a jury of my peers. image

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Exposing silver to bleach turns the coin completely black. The coin in the video does look like it has been bleached.
  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What I did notice was that her 1795 dollar had an HE reverse....this is a truly rare coin !


  • << <i>What I did notice was that her 1795 dollar had an HE reverse....this is a truly rare coin ! >>



    Actually, if you look at the coin the judge was holding, the coin is dated 1799. Apparently the buyer brought the wrong coin to court with her.
  • PokermandudePokermandude Posts: 2,709 ✭✭✭
    I too have never heard of "cloroxing". Coin definitely looks cleaned/altered though.

    She paid a very significant amount of tuition to learn what a cleaned coin looks like. That's kinda like diving head first into a pool of unknown depth.
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  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    Sometimes playing dumb in a court room pays off.
    Chat Board Lingo

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  • RaufusRaufus Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I think it was nice that the dealer managed to wear a shirt without mustard stains for his big day in court.

    Thanks for the video, it was neat to watch.

    In all seriousness, most people don't know how to argue or present a coherent explanation of things.

    All she had to do was point out that coins, like other collectibles, are governed by the ethic of disclosure. The coin was sold as original and subsequently she found out that it had been altered. The dealer didn't disclose the alteration at the time of sale, therefore she has a case for damages due to diminished value. She should have brought written opinions from a couple of dealers to that effect, and think she could have won on those grounds.

    It would be no different if say an antique dealer sold a 17th century cabinet for full retail, and failed to mention that the original surface had been stripped and refinished. If the buyer found that out later, and had expert opinions to that effect, then he would have a strong case for damages, whether the original dealer knew about the refinishing or not.

    I felt bad for the lady, I think she had a real case against the dealer, but just didn't know how to present it in a way that the judge understood. >>



    Great post and spot on. I really feel sorry for her. I'm sure that the dealer knew that the coin had been altered. That said, she deserved to loose on the merits as many have said.
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