Cloroxed coin goes to the "people's court"-1799 dollar
rec78
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Many years ago ('bout 40) I experimented with clorox toning. Clorox can cause instant toning on a silver coin. You cant see the coin very well in the video but I can see it well enough-It appears to have been messed with. Stack's offered her $800 for this coin? And I am sure Jules heard of the term before even though he denies it. 1795 dollar on the people's court
It is a 1799.
Bob
It is a 1799.
Bob
0
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Barack Obama bought a burger with my pocket change!
1. Pacific Coast Grading Company ?? I wonder about that guy.
on the other hand,
2. a business card with a number on it is meaningless. That could have been the price for any coin.
3. I would have taken the note on the fax a little more seriously.
In the end, if she really thought it was AT she needed a grading company's opinion instead of an auction house's opinion.
Why has Taco Bell toning talk supplanted clorox toning here? Who here recalls the term "cloroxed?"
PS I've got to try it tomorrow on some junk silver
<< <i>Jules I believe also said he was one of pcgs' founding partners yet couldn't state what the letters PCGS stood for. >>
If i remember correctly- The original name was Pacific Coast Grading Service and changed later. I could be wrong on this.
I have heard of Jules Karp but never did any business with him.
"PS I've got to try it tomorrow on some junk silver"
MsMorrisine . The toning is instant and you can get almost any color- Thoroughly rinse the coin immediately after application. I cannot tell if the coin in the video was cloroxed or something else was done with it.
<< <i>I believe he might have passed away in 2010, maybe someone here knows for sure. >>
May 2010
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Clorox? Wouldnt that be just damage? >>
Clorox will just turn silver purple... The practice of using potassium chloride to give pre 1840 Flowing, Draped, and Bust coinage a deep gray black patina was started era's ago. You can see such examples on the browse floor in TPG holders and if you thoroughly inspect non field areas such as the crevices on the stars you'll see the chemical etching.
What's up with Pacific Coast Grading Service? 40 years in the biz original memeber of PCGS and NGC
and doesn't know what PCGS stands for?
Professional Coin Grading Service is the way I understand it.
She was very unprepared for the case. If PCGS slabbed it genuine with altered surfaces that would have helped big time.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Can this effect be reversed?
The customer and the judge touching the coin with their fingers should void any return?
Haven't these people even heard of a 2x2??
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I think the buyer is clearly the case of someone with more money than knowledge.
If she had done any sort of due dilligence she would have bought a 1795 Silver Dollar already slabbed by PCGS.
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No reputations were hurt in the making of this post.
<< <i>Pacific Coast Grading Company is located in Carlsbad, CA, just a couple of miles from my home. --Jerry >>
I don't think they grade coins though
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
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Thanks for the video, it was neat to watch.
In all seriousness, most people don't know how to argue or present a coherent explanation of things.
All she had to do was point out that coins, like other collectibles, are governed by the ethic of disclosure. The coin was sold as original and subsequently she found out that it had been altered. The dealer didn't disclose the alteration at the time of sale, therefore she has a case for damages due to diminished value. She should have brought written opinions from a couple of dealers to that effect, and think she could have won on those grounds.
It would be no different if say an antique dealer sold a 17th century cabinet for full retail, and failed to mention that the original surface had been stripped and refinished. If the buyer found that out later, and had expert opinions to that effect, then he would have a strong case for damages, whether the original dealer knew about the refinishing or not.
I felt bad for the lady, I think she had a real case against the dealer, but just didn't know how to present it in a way that the judge understood.
I notice the judge had no doubt as to the dealers years in the business, his connection with the TPG's (though he might have just mis-spoke when he in correctly referred to PCGS as Pacific..etc.).
I found the whole deal aggravating.
Pete
Louis Armstrong
1. Purchased a coin for $5000 that is 'RAW' (any coins worth $5000 or more should only be purchased certified unless they are bullion)
2. She didn't immediately take the 'RAW" coin to an expert
3. She sued years later after any return policy would have expired (unless the coin was counterfeit.....which it wasn't)
4. After all that time has passed, there is no way to know if the seller or buyer was the one that cloroxed the coin.
One final note......I have heard of many types of cleaning, but, I have never heard of cloroxing a coin.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>What's the dealer worried about?
The customer and the judge touching the coin with their fingers should void any return?
Haven't these people even heard of a 2x2?? >>
I believe it was handed to the judge in a plastic flip and she removed it.
Interesting side point
40 years in the business, and "what was the dealer worried about?"
The dealer certainly didn't worry about the coin being handled improperly. Neither did she. Of course, she believed it had altered surfaces. Did he show no concern because he also knew????
What I think is funny though is when they interview all of the uninformed, un(numismatically)educated folks out in the street...they all have such definitive, passionate opinions. But of course they all have their JJE certification- judge, jury, and executioner.
I hope I am never judged by a jury of my peers.
8 Reales Madness Collection
<< <i>What I did notice was that her 1795 dollar had an HE reverse....this is a truly rare coin ! >>
Actually, if you look at the coin the judge was holding, the coin is dated 1799. Apparently the buyer brought the wrong coin to court with her.
She paid a very significant amount of tuition to learn what a cleaned coin looks like. That's kinda like diving head first into a pool of unknown depth.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>I think it was nice that the dealer managed to wear a shirt without mustard stains for his big day in court.
Thanks for the video, it was neat to watch.
In all seriousness, most people don't know how to argue or present a coherent explanation of things.
All she had to do was point out that coins, like other collectibles, are governed by the ethic of disclosure. The coin was sold as original and subsequently she found out that it had been altered. The dealer didn't disclose the alteration at the time of sale, therefore she has a case for damages due to diminished value. She should have brought written opinions from a couple of dealers to that effect, and think she could have won on those grounds.
It would be no different if say an antique dealer sold a 17th century cabinet for full retail, and failed to mention that the original surface had been stripped and refinished. If the buyer found that out later, and had expert opinions to that effect, then he would have a strong case for damages, whether the original dealer knew about the refinishing or not.
I felt bad for the lady, I think she had a real case against the dealer, but just didn't know how to present it in a way that the judge understood. >>
Great post and spot on. I really feel sorry for her. I'm sure that the dealer knew that the coin had been altered. That said, she deserved to loose on the merits as many have said.